Why the 6-6 Coupe SHOULD be considered a modern day "Sports" Car Despite Journalists - Drive Accord Honda Forums | radio-pro.ru
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post #1 of 137 Old 07-27-2016, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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Why the 6-6 Coupe SHOULD be considered a modern day "Sports" Car Despite Journalists

I just picked up a 2016 6-6 Coupe as my fun to drive daily, yet comfortable, commuter. While doing my pre-purchase research I heard journalist after journalist call the 6-6 a really fun to drive car that was still well short of being a sports car. So as someone with a Motorsports background who has owned and driven proper "sports" cars, I thought I would give my opinion on the subject.

It all boils down to what we consider a modern "sports car." The definition has drastically changed over the last 30 years. Most modern "sports cars" are automatically shifted and freaking HEAVY. We're talking SUV heavy. 911 Turbo S, m3/m4, GTR, etc. Some of these cars are now knocking on 4000 pounds and manuals are uncommon or not offered at all in cases like the Turbo S and GTR. Even the nearly million dollar Porsche flag ship 918 is around 3700 pounds and comes PDK only. It is interesting to note that the Viper ACR crushed the 918's laptime at Laguna Seca at a small fraction of the price while having a more traditional sports car formula (lower weight, rwd, manual transmission). This is despite the fact the 918 has features we know can make for faster track times such as awd, PDK transmission, higher power to weight ratio etc. Now a days I even see journalists refer to the Challenger Hellcat as a "sports car." Interesting, given it doesn't weigh much less than a Range Rover and is nearly half a ton heavier than some luxury sedans. We have now officially departed quite a long way from the original definition of what a sports car used to be.

Now the 6-6 is listed as 3397 pounds. It comes with a proper manual transmission and it comes with a wonderfully responsive and torquey naturally aspirated engine. The combination of aggressive gearing, manual transmission, torquey naturally aspirated engine, and relatively low weight gives the car a throttle pedal that feels delightfully lively and makes the car a blast to drive. The car is more lively feeling and connected to the driver than some modern "sports cars."

Due to ever increasing CAFE requirements we are seeing less and less naturally aspirated "sports" cars and more smaller displacement turbo charged "sports" cars. We also see less and less manuals. Unfortunately you pay the price in throttle response and liveliness with small displacement forced induction especially if it's not positive displacement forced induction. Having owned plenty of turbocharged cars I always hated how the gas pedal would yield a different torque output at the same throttle input and rpm depending how spooled up your turbo was.

Tossing the 6-6 around it doesn't feel quite as heavy as its curb weight would suggest and overall feels much lighter and more toss-able than many considerably heavier modern "sports cars." I mean really the only real "not a sports car" critique is that it is fwd and so you can't rotate the car with the throttle. But keep in mind plenty of modern AWD "sports cars" understeer under throttle as well. It does have an overpowered and somewhat disconnected/vague steering feel but so do many modern "sports" cars. In fact while my Z06 was a great drivers car it also had vague and overpowered steering. I think the more important thing to think about is what the car feels like overall when you are driving it. The 6-6 coupe is commonly compared to the v6 Mustang but I personally never quite liked the driving experience of the mustang. Can't quite put my finger on why. Despite having superior steering feel and better numbers on paper, there is just something about the way the car drives. I've just never personally thought any of the pony cars drove like true sports cars. Don't get me wrong, they are fun cars, but when I think of a sports car I think of something that drives like you are wearing it like a tight fitting suit. When I think sports car I think S2000 or Miata or FD3S Rx7 or even an E36 M3.

Now the accord of course falls short of those far truer "sports cars" but my whole point is if an automatically shifted 4000 pound awd car, or a Hellcat for that matter, is now considered a "sports car" then the 6-6 Coupe is just as much of a "sports car" IMHO. I find the car feels lively and engaging which makes it fun to drive. In my eyes that is the whole point of a "sports car" anyway. Maneuvering around town/traffic is effortless because the car feels responsive and engaging. It consistently puts a smile on my face and that definitely means something given how jaded I am from the far more capable cars I've owned and driven in the past.

My 2 cents anyway.

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post #2 of 137 Old 07-27-2016, 04:09 PM
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"It's FWD"
"One tire fire"
"Steering's numb and it sucks"
"It's a family sedan with two doors chopped off lol"
"It's an Accord"

lol, that being said...

While far more engaging than most new cars these days, I still wouldn't go so far and put the 6-6 into sports car territory, but more towards grand touring/personal luxury vehicle.

Buuuuut... Yes, there's definitely an inherent bias against Accords being anything other than econobox family sedans. Most people never even test drove a 6-6 to begin with anyways.

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post #3 of 137 Old 07-27-2016, 04:43 PM
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The Accord is not a "sports car" regardless of transmission or engine. Yes, you can throw track suspension, wheels, tires, brakes, engine mods, tunes, etc at the car but it's simply not a car designed for motorsports, it's not in its DNA.
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post #4 of 137 Old 07-27-2016, 05:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSA View Post
"It's FWD"
"One tire fire"
"Steering's numb and it sucks"
"It's a family sedan with two doors chopped off lol"
"It's an Accord"

lol, that being said...

While far more engaging than most new cars these days, I still wouldn't go so far and put the 6-6 into sports car territory, but more towards grand touring/personal luxury vehicle.

Buuuuut... Yes, there's definitely an inherent bias against Accords being anything other than econobox family sedans. Most people never even test drove a 6-6 to begin with anyways.
Hah yah. That's kinda the point I am trying to get at. The 6-6 Coupe is not a sports car by my own personal definition but neither is most of the stuff out there journalists now call a "sports car." Most modern day "sports cars" are what we used to call GT cars. Some modern exceptions are the MX5, FRS, Lotus Elise, Alpha 4C. These are still true sports cars. The Mclaren F1, 2500 pounds, NA 6.1L V12, Manual Transmission, Rear wheel drive. Now that's a sports car. But if you're going to label 4000 pound, automatic, land yachts sports car then clearly we are now playing fast and loose with the term. Remember the original sports cars were cars like the old MG's, Porsche Speedsters, Ferrari 250 GT, etc. Cars around 2500 pounds. Even the old Miura with a big V12 was under 3000 pounds and at the time considered more of a GT car due to its size and weight.
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post #5 of 137 Old 07-27-2016, 05:58 PM
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I think a sports car should be more go kart like.
In handling and acceleration.
But what do I know?
The V6 moves out pretty good.
Um, I will take the Sgt Schultz defense in advance.
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post #6 of 137 Old 07-27-2016, 07:13 PM
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I agree that there are some cars that get labeled a sports car that are not true sports cars. Hellcat included.

The definition of "sports car" has changed over time and I do not agree that a sports car has to have a manual transmission. Look at F1 cars - sports cars by their very existence - and you'll see no manual transmission.

As to whether the Accord 6/6 is a sports car, I claim it is in no way any such thing. I have driven a 9th gen 6/6 at my local motorsports track and found it very wanting in track use. It's hampered by FWD and brakes that fade after a lap or too. The suspension is really not of a sports car caliber when the car is pushed hard.

When I compare the 6/6 to the GT3-RS, with the GT3-RS having the PDK transmission, I simply cannot claim the GT3-RS is not a sports car. Nor can I claim the 6/6 is a sports car. They are worlds apart in sporty driving pleasure (and also worlds apart in price of course).

The 6/6 is a very good grand tourer IMO and is a nice car to push to 6/10ths on windy roads.
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post #7 of 137 Old 07-27-2016, 08:20 PM
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thek, what tires you running on yours? I wonder if spooning on a set of real summer tires (ie pilot super sports) would drastically change the character of the car in the corners.

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post #8 of 137 Old 07-27-2016, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Markus View Post
I agree that there are some cars that get labeled a sports car that are not true sports cars. Hellcat included.

The definition of "sports car" has changed over time and I do not agree that a sports car has to have a manual transmission. Look at F1 cars - sports cars by their very existence - and you'll see no manual transmission.

As to whether the Accord 6/6 is a sports car, I claim it is in no way any such thing. I have driven a 9th gen 6/6 at my local motorsports track and found it very wanting in track use. It's hampered by FWD and brakes that fade after a lap or too. The suspension is really not of a sports car caliber when the car is pushed hard.

When I compare the 6/6 to the GT3-RS, with the GT3-RS having the PDK transmission, I simply cannot claim the GT3-RS is not a sports car. Nor can I claim the 6/6 is a sports car. They are worlds apart in sporty driving pleasure (and also worlds apart in price of course).

The 6/6 is a very good grand tourer IMO and is a nice car to push to 6/10ths on windy roads.
I pretty much agree with everything in your post. However, I would argue that the consumer idea of a sports car is all about the driving experience, not at all the true track capabilities. I don't think anyone ever considered the old GNX a sports car yet it was quite capable on the track compared to other real sports cars from its era.

A race car, like Formula 1, has absolutely no concern with what driving experience consists of. It only cares about going as fast as the rules allow. If the rules allowed a driver to sit in an air conditioned office building and remotely control the car, and if that meant the car would be faster, then they would all be building the car driverless. Nobody would ever argue that a manual transmission is faster then a proper modern computer shifted one in any racing application. Although, it is interesting that the new ACR is pretty much the fastest production car money can buy on the track despite the fact it is manually shifted. This has more to do with the fact the car is so well sorted that it can turn fast lap times despite the handicap of being manually shifted. I don't like the fact that the automation of the automatic comes at the expense of dis involving the driver from a major aspect of the driving experience. Some manual cars now come with auto rev matching for your downshifts. Great for the majority of people who never learned to heal and toe but there is something so freaking visceral and satisfying of a proper heel toe downshift. Automation always comes at a cost.

Sure the accord has a suspension far too optimized for ride rather than handling and that the brakes are far from track ready. But I would argue that many even proper "sports cars" lack track ready brakes that can make it past a single hot lap on a faster track. Plenty of "sports cars" have compromised suspensions that are far more optimized for comfort on city roads vs race tracks.

Comparing a 6-6 coupe to a GT3-RS is silly. Nobody would argue that a GT3-RS is not a drivers car. I would still gladly consider it a sports car. Yes it has PDK, and while I would personally prefer a slower manual in it, you still have a car that is barely over 3000 pounds, has 500 high revving naturally aspirated horsepower, rear wheel drive, proper track ready brakes and suspension, and an aggressive weight distribution. In fact I would say the GT3-RS is FAR more true of a sports car than the 918 and the majority of current high end "sports cars" such as the 911 Turbo S, GTR, Lamborghini Aventador etc regardless of where the track times fall.
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post #9 of 137 Old 07-27-2016, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by thek View Post
I pretty much agree with everything in your post. However, I would argue that the consumer idea of a sports car is all about the driving experience, not at all the true track capabilities. I don't think anyone ever considered the old GNX a sports car yet it was quite capable on the track compared to other real sports cars from its era.

A race car, like Formula 1, has absolutely no concern with what driving experience consists of. It only cares about going as fast as the rules allow. If the rules allowed a driver to sit in an air conditioned office building and remotely control the car, and if that meant the car would be faster, then they would all be building the car driverless. Nobody would ever argue that a manual transmission is faster then a proper modern computer shifted one in any racing application. Although, it is interesting that the new ACR is pretty much the fastest production car money can buy on the track despite the fact it is manually shifted. This has more to do with the fact the car is so well sorted that it can turn fast lap times despite the handicap of being manually shifted. I don't like the fact that the automation of the automatic comes at the expense of dis involving the driver from a major aspect of the driving experience. Some manual cars now come with auto rev matching for your downshifts. Great for the majority of people who never learned to heal and toe but there is something so freaking visceral and satisfying of a proper heel toe downshift. Automation always comes at a cost.

Sure the accord has a suspension far too optimized for ride rather than handling and that the brakes are far from track ready. But I would argue that many even proper "sports cars" lack track ready brakes that can make it past a single hot lap on a faster track. Plenty of "sports cars" have compromised suspensions that are far more optimized for comfort on city roads vs race tracks.

Comparing a 6-6 coupe to a GT3-RS is silly. Nobody would argue that a GT3-RS is not a drivers car. I would still gladly consider it a sports car. Yes it has PDK, and while I would personally prefer a slower manual in it, you still have a car that is barely over 3000 pounds, has 500 high revving naturally aspirated horsepower, rear wheel drive, proper track ready brakes and suspension, and an aggressive weight distribution. In fact I would say the GT3-RS is FAR more true of a sports car than the 918 and the majority of current high end "sports cars" such as the 911 Turbo S, GTR, Lamborghini Aventador etc regardless of where the track times fall.
And I agree with pretty much everything you say in this post.

You talk of heel-and-toe and rev matching with a manual and I agree it's a wonderful thing to get right. It requires skill and practice and is so very satisfying. When I went from my manual 911 C4S to my PDK Turbo S I initially really missed manual shifting. Over time the PDK won me over and I'm not sure I want to go back to a manual for track use. I recently sold the Turbo S and replaced it with a new GT3-RS (which is proving to be so much more than I'd hoped for despite the fact that during engine break-in I'm not to exceed 5000 RPM).

So with my 911 history as perspective, would I consider the Turbo S PDK to be a sports car? Before the GT3-RS I'd have said yes. But now I'm seeing it as more of a sports car grand tourer combination. For driving on twisty public roads I'd take the Turbo S over the GT3-RS. So perhaps the pecking order is Accord 6/6 is a grand tourer, Turbo S is a sports car, and GT3-RS is a track car. Whatever labels are used, though, all 3 cars can be fun to drive.
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post #10 of 137 Old 07-28-2016, 01:19 AM
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^yes. FWD is the main reason why the 6-6 can not be a sports car. But it is the funnest accord to drive I can imagine.
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post #11 of 137 Old 07-28-2016, 04:00 AM
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I love these conversations but let’s admit it; we’ve had them a thousand times. The 6-6 is not a sports car. At best it’s an acceptable GT. Honda’s suspension is wobbly and not happy being pushed harder than 7/10s. Fortunately 7/10s still allows for a lot of fun on the road. But what the 6-6 has going for it is an amazing drivetrain. For me this V6-6MT combo offsets all the car's "minor" weaknesses.

I really enjoy my 6-6 every day. It is a great daily driver. For me, a daily driver needs to be a little soft for comfort and a little bit wide for elbow room. Ideally a BMW 340i-6MT would probably check off the most boxes for my preferences and needs. But I just don’t to want spend $56,000 on a car that breaks down. Also, to appreciate that car’s better attributes you need to drive it pretty hard.

When driving “faster,” I find my 6-6 demands focus on technique. To me that is good. It’s not like a forgiving Miata that corrects any mistakes for you. You MUST brake before all turns. (My car hates trail braking.) It also requires a very smooth turn in and one single steering input to control its wobbly nature. It also needs throttle applied well before the apex to stabilize the suspension while underload. If the downshifts, particularly the heel-toe downshifts, are not smooth this car will let you know. For me this car is a great example of the “I’d rather drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow” thing.

But here’s the big question. For an MSRP of around $32,000, what other car provides this level of acceleration, crisp engine response, MT experience, overall comfort, acceptable handling, and supreme reliability with a touch of class? I can think of none. Well done Honda!
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post #12 of 137 Old 07-28-2016, 04:28 AM
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The Accord will never be 100% of anything but it is a huge percentage of everything. This is why it inevitably comes up in comparisons to other cars that are more specialized and usually more expensive. It's more of a dialed in sweet spot type of car. It design takes in many factors and comes up with the best compromise.

Take the Ridgeline for instance. It's more truck than most would ever need but it's not really a truck. That's how Honda does it they hit the sweet spot.
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post #13 of 137 Old 07-28-2016, 05:12 AM
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The Accord is not and never will be a performance-oriented sports car, in my opinion. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, as the saying goes; calling the Accord something else would not change what it is.

Wikipedia says: "A sports car (sportscar) is a small, usually two seater, two door automobile designed for spirited performance and nimble handling. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the first known use of the term was in 1928.

Sports cars may be spartan or luxurious, but high maneuverability and minimum weight are requisite. They may be equipped for racing, "especially an aerodynamically shaped one-passenger or two-passenger vehicle having a low center of gravity and steering and suspension designed for precise control at high speeds."

A car may be a sporting automobile without being a sports car. Performance modifications of regular, production cars, such as sport compacts, sports sedans, muscle cars, hot hatches and the like, generally are not considered sports cars, yet share traits common to sports cars."

And for funsies, here is Wikipedia's list of sports cars:
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post #14 of 137 Old 07-28-2016, 05:57 AM
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What impressed me about my V6 6MT coupe was how much it responded to a few simple modifications. When stock, it was a fun little car but aside from the engine and transmission wasn't much to write home about. But it was easy to see that there was a lot of potential there. With just the addition of the HFP suspension, the more aggressive HFP alignment specs, a Progress 22mm rear sway bar and serious Summer-only tires on lightweight wheels made marked improvements without negatively detracting from ride or everyday driving needs. My point being, the Accord, the coupe especially, is competent as built but has a fair amount of untapped potential that really blossoms with the careful addition of a few items.

As it stands, I'd say my coupe is a fairly competent 9/10th car while still chock full of Honda reliability and quality. Mine is my daily drive so I have no interest in turning it into a kidney punishing PITA. Aside from my GTO, I've never owned another car that responded so well to carefully selected upgrades.

No, it is not a "sports car" but it is a ball to drive nonetheless.

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post #15 of 137 Old 07-28-2016, 06:40 AM
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Maybe the Accord V6 6 speed manual isn't a sports car but I am about to buy one as a daily driver because it is so fun to drive. This article pretty much describes how I feel. But please understand I really like Accords and for me this is enough sports car. Yes they are talking about 2013 but I still agree with the article.



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