cold start idling, downstream O2-sensors reading - normal? - Drive Accord Honda Forums | radio-pro.ru
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post #1 of 21 Old 09-22-2010, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
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cold start idling, downstream O2-sensors reading - normal?

I built a K-line adapter for my car and used free OBDTOOL software to read my ECU.
The software is very basic but give me some general parameters to read.
I hooked it up to my car and started with saving the log file.
I choose to read two this sensors because I feel that my car does not react fast enough to a gas pedal. Maybe I look into wrong direction but I would like to get opinion on my log.
The viewer and log itself are in attached archive.

Attached Files
File Type: zip capture3.zip (27.2 KB, 192 views)

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post #2 of 21 Old 09-22-2010, 04:26 PM
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I can't open the viewer program for your log file.

Anyway, downstream O2 sensors shouldn't be read immediately after cold start, they also won't tell you anything other that what the cats are doing.

You need to read the a/f sensors by watching the short and long term fuel trims along with the lambda values displayed on a scanner, if you're looking for how the car is running.

The car needs to be in proper fuel control. You'll only know that by watching short term trim and long term trim.

The car will only react to the accelerator as it's programmed to. Drive by wire can be very responsive or not. Accords seem to be somewhat lazy in response to the input given by the driver.


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post #3 of 21 Old 09-23-2010, 07:48 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry Fred,
You are not alone with this trouble. I guess you need either install Visual Basic component library for Windows or install the whole OBDTOOL software which has necessary components. This viewer proven to work on all my computers even without installation of whole software but all my computers have VB 4.0 and up on them.
The link to the software is
I don't know another source for this program.
Actually I converted log files into Excel format.
Here they are:

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post #4 of 21 Old 09-25-2010, 05:58 PM
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The post cat sensors tell us nothing about how the car is running, just what the cats are doing based on what the PCM is telling the car to feed them.

The fuel trims should stay at 0 +- 5% preferred. What's with the spikes going way high on bank 2? This was with the car just idling all that time? That bank is adding fuel somewhat excessively.

You need to graph the front a/f sensors lambda readings, in real time. You may not be able to get them to read fast enough without a DSO and a very fast sampling rate.

From what I can tell, the PCM is trying to keep in fuel control, but I don't like the excursions all the way into positive correction.

Since your car should have a maf sensor, can I get some readings of the following:

Idle, we already have. Please post up long term trims as well.

2500 rpm steady state no load. (fuel trims both st and lt)

driving at a steady 45 to 50 mph, graph fuel trims both lt and st.

Now, I want an idle reading of MAF and calculated engine load.

Then reading MAF, st and calculated engine load, floor it and hold to at least 60 mph and/or two full throttle upshifts. I need to see these readings.

Are there any codes or pending codes in the PCM?

Sapphire blue '04 V6 6 speed w/ full HFP, comptech ss, momo shadow, TL-S 27.2h/20 bars, intake spacer, retro chrome MH1 HIR2 highs, hella DE fogs, EBC Ultimax, subwoofer/amp, infinity rears, HD Radio, aux adapter, navi conversion.

Vermilion 1999 SVT F150 Lightning, Sylvania/Visteon Xenarc HID headlamps, '01 L turn/marker lamps, PIAA fogs, '01 up Bilstein shocks, all Pioneer speakers, Clarion subwoofer. All Redline fluids.

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post #5 of 21 Old 09-25-2010, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredsvt View Post
The post cat sensors tell us nothing about how the car is running, just what the cats are doing based on what the PCM is telling the car to feed them.

The fuel trims should stay at 0 +- 5% preferred. What's with the spikes going way high on bank 2? This was with the car just idling all that time? That bank is adding fuel somewhat excessively.

You need to graph the front a/f sensors lambda readings, in real time. You may not be able to get them to read fast enough without a DSO and a very fast sampling rate.

From what I can tell, the PCM is trying to keep in fuel control, but I don't like the excursions all the way into positive correction.

Since your car should have a maf sensor, can I get some readings of the following:

Idle, we already have. Please post up long term trims as well.

2500 rpm steady state no load. (fuel trims both st and lt)

driving at a steady 45 to 50 mph, graph fuel trims both lt and st.

Now, I want an idle reading of MAF and calculated engine load.

Then reading MAF, st and calculated engine load, floor it and hold to at least 60 mph and/or two full throttle upshifts. I need to see these readings.

Are there any codes or pending codes in the PCM?
Thank you, for your prompt answer.
Capture3 file was taken from cold start with idling.
Capture4 file was taken also from cold start at idle but at the and I pressed a gas pedal twice with short interval. I pressed only 1/3 way so RPMs only touched 2000.
I don't like sf trim overshoot on bank 2 myself but I don't have an explanation for that either.
I will take as much measurements as possible following your request but I can do it probably only next week.
I don't have DSO in personal possession but I will try to borrow it though.
My lf trim on bank 1 is between 5% and 6% most of the time. My lf trim on bank 2 is between 0% and 1% most of the time.
No pending or active codes in PCM.

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post #6 of 21 Old 10-01-2010, 06:07 AM Thread Starter
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I took a log for MAF and calculated engine load.
The link is here:
The first part is a cold start and idling then I started to drive around.
What parameters should I log for your question about "driving at a steady 45 to 50 mph, graph fuel trims both lt and st."? I have only option to log two parameters at once (software limitation).
Should I log st bank1 and st bank2 together?
Or maybe I should log st bank1 and lt bank1 together and after that log st bank2 and lt bank2 together?

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post #7 of 21 Old 10-01-2010, 04:00 PM
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It's a little difficult for me to tell by the graphs if it's working exactly as it should. The load does reach 100% so that at least tells me that the PCM is seeing full load.
Since the car still should have a MAP sensor, it may use that for engine load calculation.

The MAF readings you posted, can you post or convert the units to grams/sec?

At the steady 45 to 50mph, can you make two graphs b1 short and long term trims, then b2 short and long term trims. That would work.

Can you also give me MAP voltage readings at idle only. Preferably warm.

Sapphire blue '04 V6 6 speed w/ full HFP, comptech ss, momo shadow, TL-S 27.2h/20 bars, intake spacer, retro chrome MH1 HIR2 highs, hella DE fogs, EBC Ultimax, subwoofer/amp, infinity rears, HD Radio, aux adapter, navi conversion.

Vermilion 1999 SVT F150 Lightning, Sylvania/Visteon Xenarc HID headlamps, '01 L turn/marker lamps, PIAA fogs, '01 up Bilstein shocks, all Pioneer speakers, Clarion subwoofer. All Redline fluids.

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post #8 of 21 Old 10-04-2010, 03:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredsvt View Post
It's a little difficult for me to tell by the graphs if it's working exactly as it should. The load does reach 100% so that at least tells me that the PCM is seeing full load.
Since the car still should have a MAP sensor, it may use that for engine load calculation.

The MAF readings you posted, can you post or convert the units to grams/sec?

At the steady 45 to 50mph, can you make two graphs b1 short and long term trims, then b2 short and long term trims. That would work.

Can you also give me MAP voltage readings at idle only. Preferably warm.
Hello Fred,

Thank for clarification for how to log data. I will proceed as soon as convinient for me.
I updated my previous results with MAF readings converted to g/sec. The new link is here:
Will it work if I provide MAP reading in digital format from OBDtool? Or do you really need voltage readings from ECU connector?

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post #9 of 21 Old 10-04-2010, 04:14 PM
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I'd really like to see what the map reading is in volts at cold idle, and hot idle.

If the tool can graph the voltage, that can work.

The load and flow rates I'm seeing seem to be following along pretty well. I don't see any real problems. When it's showing full load, how is the engine performing.

With the IMA, it's a little different than looking at an ICE running alone.

Sapphire blue '04 V6 6 speed w/ full HFP, comptech ss, momo shadow, TL-S 27.2h/20 bars, intake spacer, retro chrome MH1 HIR2 highs, hella DE fogs, EBC Ultimax, subwoofer/amp, infinity rears, HD Radio, aux adapter, navi conversion.

Vermilion 1999 SVT F150 Lightning, Sylvania/Visteon Xenarc HID headlamps, '01 L turn/marker lamps, PIAA fogs, '01 up Bilstein shocks, all Pioneer speakers, Clarion subwoofer. All Redline fluids.

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post #10 of 21 Old 10-05-2010, 09:28 PM Thread Starter
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Hello Fred,
I will try to get a real voltage reading from MAP sensor at idle (cold and hot). Just give me some time.
I took few more logs which revealed some problems that I experience for years.
Just for the story. I started to have jerks in steady drive after probably less that a year of ownership.
Now I see why. You can see sudden spikes on TPS graph after initial warm-up.
When I fill the car jerks I saw a new spike on the log.
Here is a link to this log in Excel format.
Second file is continue of my ride started after a short stop.
The speed was anywhere from 0 to 50 Mph. The terrain was hilly with some flat.

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post #11 of 21 Old 10-06-2010, 04:35 PM
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I really don't like the maf spike in the second file. But, the more I look at the charts, it seems that there's spikes in general that don't make sense.

When these charts are in seconds, this is actual 1 second intervals?

It's almost as there's "noise" in the circuits you're looking at. I'd really like to see a waveform from a DSO backprobed at the PCM connectors for the TPS and MAF.

Which TPS are you reading? Pedal position or throttle plate position?

Has the car ever been updated, the Hybrids have had some reflashes available for certain issues.

Sapphire blue '04 V6 6 speed w/ full HFP, comptech ss, momo shadow, TL-S 27.2h/20 bars, intake spacer, retro chrome MH1 HIR2 highs, hella DE fogs, EBC Ultimax, subwoofer/amp, infinity rears, HD Radio, aux adapter, navi conversion.

Vermilion 1999 SVT F150 Lightning, Sylvania/Visteon Xenarc HID headlamps, '01 L turn/marker lamps, PIAA fogs, '01 up Bilstein shocks, all Pioneer speakers, Clarion subwoofer. All Redline fluids.

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post #12 of 21 Old 10-06-2010, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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My car is up to date with updates according to Honda service dept.
I read throttle plate position not pedal position.
The charts are in seconds but minimal interval between readings is 0.3 sec.
I would agree with your idea about circuit noise because it highly possible when electrical motor engages to create a huge electro-magnetic field (in form of pulse).
The question is why this happens not all the times when electric motor engages?

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post #13 of 21 Old 10-07-2010, 05:02 PM
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Throttle plate position is going to be hard to determine, as it's not just following movements dictated by your foot.

The PCM is controlling it, and is effected by things like the IMA, VSA, etc. The huge spikes could just be noise.

I'd really like to see a real scope pattern of requested throttle and the actual output from the throttle control module.

You can also be seeing noise introduced by things like the alternator, and the TAC motor itself. It is a quite high current motor, and I'm not familiar with the software you're using.

I'm not sure, exactly, what the IMA's effects if any on the electronics are. I'd have to ask around.

Don't forget, the IMA motor is always turning, since it's the flywheel, but may not have the high voltage going to it. It is also a generator to charge the high voltage battery, should it require it, usually only during decel while braking. It also has to generate power, albeit small, to charge the car's 12v battery as there is a DC to DC converter in the system, since the car doesn't use a conventional alternator.

I've been reading how the IMA system works. The IMA control system can modify nearly everything you're seeing. It modifies TAC, VCM (it can keep valves closed during certain times as it sees fit)

You may be feeling the "hiccup" or buck as the VCM operating, as it will try and operate in 3 cylinder mode as much as possible, any throttle input it sees as a demand for acceleration it'll switch to 6 cylinder mode and back again.

Sapphire blue '04 V6 6 speed w/ full HFP, comptech ss, momo shadow, TL-S 27.2h/20 bars, intake spacer, retro chrome MH1 HIR2 highs, hella DE fogs, EBC Ultimax, subwoofer/amp, infinity rears, HD Radio, aux adapter, navi conversion.

Vermilion 1999 SVT F150 Lightning, Sylvania/Visteon Xenarc HID headlamps, '01 L turn/marker lamps, PIAA fogs, '01 up Bilstein shocks, all Pioneer speakers, Clarion subwoofer. All Redline fluids.

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post #14 of 21 Old 10-08-2010, 05:54 AM Thread Starter
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I don't think it is quite easy to get real analog waveforms form from throttle actuator. ECU controls throttle digitally according to following schematic

I checked location of the throttle actuator control module and it is behind right kick panel which is not easy to remove for me.
Could it be that TPS reading I get may be modified by ECU using additional parameters? I heard that ECU may fake some parameters returning thru regular OBD2 commands if some sensor goes bad and only return the real values thru proprietary manufacturer commands in a special mode.
What I can tell for sure that I see a clear correlation between spikes on TPS reading and IMA motor engaging (but the spikes may not accompany each motor engagement).

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post #15 of 21 Old 10-08-2010, 06:08 AM Thread Starter
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I uploaded few more files for you:
1) MAF reading together with short fuel trim for each bank separately
2) Short and long fuel trim for each bank logged together (same link, second archive)
3) TPS vs. three other parameters (st b1, MAF and RPM)


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