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post #1 of 45 Old 09-16-2010, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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Transmission failure - possible cause and fix

Gen7 V6 5AT. Background: Transmission 3rd and 4th gear pressure switches – yes I know it's been talked about before.

There has been a lot of talk on various forums concerning possible faults these can cause when they go out of tolerance. I've seen two transmissions rebuilders recommend replacing them every 5 years or so as part of a preventive measure. Apparently to help prevent clutch pack damage. Quoted rational was that as they age they signal the PCM to extend the lockup time or transition time between gears and therefore could result in excessive wear and heat. There have been a few reports of harsh shifting, vague shifting, vibrating roughness when shifting and slow engagement into Drive being cured by their replacement.

I had two questions with a few of the reports.

1. Quite often the battery is disconnected and/or some or all of the fluid is replaced when these pressure switches are replaced. Doing this has been shown to temporally mask or sometimes reduce these same conditions. 2. These switches appear to sense (?) when either 3rd or 4th is actually engaged. They should not affect 1st gear engagement.

After hounding a few of the Honda parts outlets it appears that the 3rd gear pressure switch is a commonly ordered item at some dealers. Nothing much in itself but it made me look further. Now I can see a case where over time you may not notice shifts from 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th and 4-3, 3-2 getting slower or less crisp and it is this possibility that interested me as 3rd is the clutch pack that appears to fails more often than most. So with that in mind I decided to replace them.


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post #2 of 45 Old 09-16-2010, 11:44 PM Thread Starter
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Part 2 of 3

Vehicle History: My Accord is an early 2004 model and the transmission has a build date of the around the last month of 03 – this is also a Thailand built vehicle. It had around 63,000 miles on it when purchased and fortunately they were all highway miles. The transmission fluid as per the normal Honda schedule was due for replacement at 72,000 miles. The online “Honda dealer service details” for this service shows only 2.9L of transmission fluid would be used the same as my owner service handbook. – In other words one drain and refill.

Oil was the colour of old engine oil, Magnet plug was pretty clean but the filter was definitely due to be replaced as flow rate had reduced considerably on my test jig – there was a fine crust over the filter that appears to harden with time. First thing I did was a complete Honda flush (3x D, D, R) and fitted a new transmission filter. The transmission shifted fine before the service. Thankfully there was no difference after the service, did it just in time – Again thankfully all easy highway miles at 60mph or less. This car drives, handles and feels almost like new.

Three friends have Honda G7's; I have a G6 and a G7 and have been paying particular attention to how mine and the others shift under all conditions over the past 12 months. There are two things that feel slightly out of place. They have a slightly longer shift overlap from 2nd to 3rd when cold and driven like a Granny on Sunday mornings (no flaring) Like a feeling that DBW is holding the throttle back slightly longer. The slightest ease up of the accelerator and the DBW position sensor makes the 2nd to 3rd shift complete almost instantly. No harshness at anytime and all shifts under slow, normal or flat-out hard driving are perfect. To me it feels like it’s trying to make the 2nd to 3rd shift as smooth as possible for that style of Granny driving. The second quirk is a slight delay when shifting from P to D. These V6 transmissions engage two clutch packs sequentially when shifting from N to D so that 1st gear is gently engaged, unlike the transmissions I’m used to that just select 1st. There are a lot of posts on various forums about this delay, most report a slight delay but quite a few are taking 2 to 3 seconds which is a real problem and an obvious fault.

This engagement time is just under 1 second from cold and slightly shorter when warm. The other Hondas of this age I have driven were the same or longer in this engagement. I only noticed it because I went looking for it after reading the forums, never noticed mine until then. I regularly drive four different cars (2 not Honda) and this G7 transmission feels more responsive that the others. Replacing the pressure switches is about as hard a replacing a spark plug.


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post #3 of 45 Old 09-16-2010, 11:53 PM Thread Starter
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Part 3

To cut to the chase, the results are not what I expected and nothing was changed, reset or touched. Just two switches replaced.

1. I cannot induce the slightly extended 2nd to 3rd granny shift feel with the trans cold, no matter how hard I try, the change points are higher as per TCU coolant temperature input logic and hard accelerating shift points are lower as before for the same reason, you still feel the DBW ease off the throttle on the 2nd to 3rd shift but the overlap is a lot faster and positive.

2. Shifting between all gears has “definitely” tightened up- I thought it was already tight.

3. Grade logic deceleration and response (down shifting engagement feel) is even better than it was before and again I thought it was great to start with.

4. P to D engagement time has been reduced from about 1 second to “less” that 1/2 a second.

How can these switches improve P to D engagement?

Well the answer was right in front of me. When you change from N to D (V6 only) the PCM engages the 3rd gear clutch before it engages 1st (after release of 3rd) to lessen the engagement shock i guess? I think the transmission was being forced to wait longer for the required 3rd gear pressure to be indicated by the pressure switch before releasing and sliding into 1st. If so, this slightly extended delay for extra pressure to build is carried through 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 2nd and 4th to 3rd shifting. Reduced pressure as a transmission ages is a common condition and these switches, as they age, may be forcing the transmission to build even more pressure? Interesting note. These sensors have no earth return pin in the connector. They depend on the integrity of the transmission ground for their return path. This may or may not be of concern over time but it’s something to keep in mind!

I was not going to replace these switches as I was convinced that this transmission was shifting as well as any other Accord I have driven and there was no way they would improve shift feel. -Wrong in my case! Now I see where these Trans rebuilders are coming from. If you drive in conditions that require a lot of 2-3 and 4-3 shifting (traffic) these slight unnoticed longer shift patterns could increase clutch-pack wear rate considerably in an otherwise good transmission. Is this a possable reason for some failures around the 50 to 100,000 mile mark? I believe both can be had for around $40.00 each.

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post #4 of 45 Old 09-17-2010, 05:32 PM
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Mike, thanks for all the work you're doing.

I do need to note that there is a huge difference between the 5at in the Gen 7 vs the 4at in the gen 6. Both V6s mind you.

The gen 7 has torque reduction during shifts, it retards timing and closes the throttle to reduce engine power during shifts. The gen 6 does not.

Along with a bunch of differences internally, trying to compare the failures that the 4at sees to the 5at is like apples and oranges. Yes, they use some very similar parts, like the pressure switches. I've only ever seen pressure switch issues with gen 6, none yet on gen 7s.

Yours may be a first (pressure switch issues), but changing the fluid as you did, and the filter probably raised up internal pressure. The PCM will relearn the new fluid over time. They really make no mention of it, but in my experience it does. There's no explanation as to why the shift logic, feel and gear engagement change a while afterward. I'll have to look at scan data on a gen 7 5at to see if it actually is in 3rd when you go from P to D.

I know the 4at goes directly to 1st. I've had several that have had no 1st gear, and putting it in D2 will allow you to move them around.

You are correct that cars that see much city use, do fail much faster. The 4at loses 2nd gear, and the 5at usually loses 3rd. These are the most common gears that are pulling the most load in stop go conditions. Considering that the fluid is superheated by the torque converter and there's so little heat rejection capability in the cooler system, it only serves to cook them faster.

There is one thing I've noticed in one of your other posts, that I can't wrap my head around. In a constant mesh trans such as this, it CAN'T have two gears engaged at one time. In any manual trans, if you do so, the trans LOCKS solid and won't turn. I can't see the unit ever having two clutch packs for different gears ever engaged at once.

I think the reason for the flaring, is that over time, with clutch pack wear, and the ever present valve body wear in these units, they can't immediately release and engage the next pack fast enough and thus the slight or huge flare depending on how long it takes pressure to build or clutch clearance to be closed up.

The first Honda autos used to shift extremely harsh from gear to gear due to their need to have this immediate release/apply situation.

I remember reading that these units also have a way to accumulate pressure behind the clutch apply valves in such a way that allows them to vent pressure out of an applied clutch and then apply the next. Later, the adding of the shift solenoids softens this application, so that it doesn't do the harsh jump like the old ones. PWM of the solenoid allows this provided the unit can build up the pressure in the first place. The line pressure is also PWM up and down via the linear solenoid as needed during shifts.

If you ever notice on a failing unit that flares badly, if you run it at WOT they ALL (in my experience) will shift perfectly as long as it was able to engage the gear that flares at lower throttle settings. If you can manually raise line pressure via the linear solenoid, it'll shift HARSH at light throttle, but the flare usually goes away, and the WOT shifts feel fine.

I've had luck with only a couple that have minor to moderate flaring, getting them good and hot, dumping the fluid 3 or 4x, then disconnecting the battery, hooking it back up and immediately getting on the road and running the trans at WOT numerous times.

I just worked on a 2003 Pilot today, it's got the infamous 5at with the jet kit. It's got 226k on its ORIGINAL trans, that's been serviced every 30 to 50k miles. It still shifts perfectly, although it does whine very loudly at constant speeds.

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post #5 of 45 Old 09-17-2010, 07:37 PM Thread Starter
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As usuall Fred, thanks for your feedback. Yes I realised after posting that this was in a forum that had all generations and I should have made it clear that this is for the Gen7. What had me interested was the 5AT’s on few other sites have had that list of symptoms I mentioned fixed or improved with this change and of course some noted no change, as you point out these problems can be caused by other conditions, which of course is why I put "possible" in the heading.

Actually I replaced the filter and oil a year and a half ago with no change in the shift pattern, as I said I changed one thing and one thing only. Another reason for leaving it this long to test this Pressure switch idea was to overcome any PCM trimming and to get a lot of miles and time on the transmission so there would be no confusion about any difference I noted after a change.

It's interesting as I did find a mention of the PCM modifying/ learning data over time with respect to some sensor inputs. It was not related to learning a driving style but appeared to deal with compensating for sensor and pressure timing for operational fine tuning of the transmission. So that is supported by your observations.

Getting off track for one second, one thing I noted while on the subject of the torque convertor. The 5AT trans has a ATF temperature sensor that the PCM uses to hold off TC lockup for a number reasons, one would be to quickly raise the transmission fluid to the required temperature. PCM also monitors Coolant temp to Hold 3rd to a much higher rpm before changing into 4th to help bring engine to operating temp quickly. I’m wondering if the reason Honda calls the trans heat-exchanger a warmer is because it helps warm the coolant/engine at startup and not the other way around. As you mentioned and we have discussed before, the unlocked TC should brings the trans fluid to temp faster that the trans warmer/engine could. Any thoughts?

If I have said that "two gears were actually engaged together" anywhere then that is an oversight on my part. EDIT: Just reread this at the start on shifting from N to D. “transmissions employ a two gear engagement” That really should be rewritten as it’s an incorrect description as it implies just what you said. Got to stop glossing over these short descriptions in a rush to get to the good part, sigh! - EDIT: I went back and fixed the description.

Part of the (G7 V6 only) Honda description for “D position: 1st gear shifting from N position ~~and the 3rd gear clutch is engaged. The 1st clutch is engaged gently” (It finishes with) “ ~~~the valve movements release CPC C pressure from the back of the 1st accumulator and the 3rd gear clutch, and 1st clutch is engaged securely." I will also send you the information I have on the shift description and get your feedback on that again.

As noted there have been people trying to fix shift flaring by replacing these Pressure switches and of course that is not going to happen. The ones I listed at the start are the only ones that keep getting reported as improved or fixed, I think that by the time you have vibrating or flaring shifts you are way past this. It’s interesting to see your experience with flaring by “getting them good and hot, dumping the fluid 3 or 4x, then disconnecting the battery, hooking it back up and immediately getting on the road and running the trans at WOT numerous times” A few people have had luck with something like this but unfortunately, I think as you indicated, it’s rare and for most the problems appears to come back.

Edit: Forgot to ask, how loud is "loudly" with that whine and any idea of the pitch or are you tone deaf like me?

Even more important -Mate just started installing pressure switches on his trans, in an hour or so he should be over here. I'm really interested to see if we notice any difference.

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post #6 of 45 Old 09-18-2010, 09:55 AM
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The Pilot with the whine is LOUD. It can easily overcome the radio at moderate volume levels. I couldn't deal with it on a regular basis. I'd say it's on par with listening to an old rwd diff with improper ring and pinion mesh. About 6 to 8khz

The V6 requires the warmer to get the fluid thinned out to make sure that shifts are supposedly more positive. This is one of the reasons for Honda's new fluid. Thinner and also for better mpg.

The older 4at used to accomplish the same rapid warming, and cold shift schedule by holding off 1-2. They wind way up when cold and the shift is laboriously slow.
The 4at has no temp input to the pcm, so it has to infer it.

The coolant does warm the trans on the 5at in your accord, the engine warms at a very fast rate, as it's tied into the bypass circuit for the heater/thermostat. By design modern engines have severely restricted coolant flow cold to rapidly warm it to increase mpg and reduce emissions. The trans wouldn't warm that fast unless you were an absolute animal from the get-go when cold. I'd still doubt it would heat the fluid faster than the engine coolant in that circumstance.

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post #7 of 45 Old 09-18-2010, 04:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredsvt View Post
The coolant does warm the trans on the 5at in your accord, the engine warms at a very fast rate, as it's tied into the bypass circuit for the heater/thermostat. By design modern engines have severely restricted coolant flow cold to rapidly warm it to increase mpg and reduce emissions. The trans wouldn't warm that fast unless you were an absolute animal from the get-go when cold. I'd still doubt it would heat the fluid faster than the engine coolant in that circumstance.
That makes sense - especially with such restricted coolant flow. Explains the very fast warm up I see.

Received an email from someone who knows a lot more that he is willing to tell me, (itís like pulling teeth) said the PCM also has a short term learning program for the Torque Convertor. Iím guessing to stop TQ hunting or fast lock/unlock cycles in certain driving conditions.

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post #8 of 45 Old 09-18-2010, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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Update

Second Accord owner has replaced his switches with very similar results. Interestingly he described it feeling like having a full transmission adjustment and service on the other style of trans. I thought about it and I have to agree. As a test I decided to swap the new P-switch out for the old. Shifting and feel went back to the way it was.

As Fredsvt indicated, it may not make any difference in your situation, this may be a “possible” fix for some moderate behaviour changes in an otherwise sound transmission, it’s relativity low cost and easy to do, they just screw into the side of the trans case. Going to drive these two for a week, he does three hours heavy traffic every day, I’m doing the highway. Hopefully that will give a better indication of the results we found.

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post #9 of 45 Old 09-19-2010, 09:35 AM
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Good to see this revived by folks that are far more expert than me. I'm including a link to my previous post because it contains some links that might be of use to anyone interested in doing this.

Extend auto trans life w/replacement pressure switch?


But I also have a related (I hope) question. Would a rebuilt trans (from the dealer) normally have new pressure switches?

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post #10 of 45 Old 09-19-2010, 10:29 AM
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yes, if it comes from one of the two Honda authorized reman places, it'll have all new electronic everything on it.

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post #11 of 45 Old 09-19-2010, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Thank for the links ypsibird, don’t know how I missed that post from you. Not even close to being more expert though - no way - Just more time to read, pour over workshop manuals and trying not to jump to wrong conclusions. More time to toy with the car and hound the real experts in my case. No better people to ask then the guys who actually work on these.

I agree with fredsvt appraisal and experience with these switches, so I’m just accepting it happened to work for me and enjoying it. As I was fitting them I was thinking (well this is most likely a waste of money) as they were so easy to fit I thought, why not and I couldn’t see it hurting anything. The second vehicle having a similar change has me scratching my head. It may just be down to a lucky coincidence in our case. A few of the owners in you link had some success and some didn’t if I read them correctly. Don’t know if I totally agree with the description of pressure switch operation but it looks close, doesn’t matter though, it’s a complex field and if it works for a few of us then it may be something others with similar symptoms may like to try.

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post #12 of 45 Old 09-19-2010, 06:32 PM
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I'd just like to know what pressures these switches are supposed to open/close at.

If they fall out of tolerance are they opening/closing at too low or too high a pressure?

All I could find is specs for the actual clutch apply pressure for 2, 3 and 4.

Each has a standard of "new" 130-140 psi, and low limit of 120 psi.

No mention of what the limits of the switches should ground at.

btw, they aren't 12v switches, they ground 5v reference.

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post #13 of 45 Old 09-19-2010, 07:15 PM
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Thanks Fred, hopefully my wife's trans was sourced from an authorized re-manufacturer. It seems likely since hers was replaced as a goodwill repair. Her "new" trans will be due a fluid and filter change next summer and I was considering changing one or more pressure switches at that time to try to insure the 2nd trans will last the life of the car. She does mostly city driving, putting a little more stress on the transmission.

Mike you are too modest. Reading all those manuals, hounding the experts, and actually testing things out is far beyond me. But I agree that it's hard to really tell if replacing the pressure switches is worthwhile. I guess I read it as most of the people had a positive result from replacing the switches though not all. Who knows? But I think it's neat that there are forums like this where people can put out the information or even opinions and others can read it and decide whether it's something that may benefit them.

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post #14 of 45 Old 09-19-2010, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
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Found this in one of the links that were supplied by ypsibird. don't know if that’s of any help.
The way mine acts it looks like it moved towards needing a higher psi to engage, just guessing though. Looking into the port they came out of shows nothing but clean fluid. The switch looks very clean inside, can’t see a lot though. I’ll cut the old one open if I have no luck testing it accurately on the bench.

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post #15 of 45 Old 09-20-2010, 04:33 PM
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That's weird. If they're only set to "pop" at that low of a pressure, then exactly what is it telling the PCM? The clutches don't really apply fully until the pressure is all the way up.

I"d like to see a back to back comparison of when a new switch goes, and when an old one goes. This way we can know if they close late or early.


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