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View Poll Results: If you died today, do are you certain that you would go to heaven?
Yes. Without a doubt. 17 22.97%
Think so, but not 100% sure. 23 31.08%
Don't know, but wish I could find out. 13 17.57%
Don't know. Don't care. 10 13.51%
Have other plans. 11 14.86%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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post #46 of 57 Old 03-27-2014, 08:25 PM
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On the poll, that would likely fall under "don't know, don't care".

Science has proven over & over the law of thermal dynamics, things all slow down, cool off.... So that in itself says there must be a starting point. Call creation. Call the Big Bang theory. Every group of mankind has felt the need to worship a creator. It's so much part of us that movie makers use it as stories for artificial life.

I'm not the least bit superstitious. I'm not alone in knowing Extremely educated people that are God fearing, worshiping beings. I have personally known scientists that are very much believers in the Bible.

The old saying "there's no atheists in a foxhole" meaning when we fear death even the most "critical thinkers" want God to be real is a way to show how much it is in our human nature.

All religions have a form of eternal reward or punishment. Just because some don't believe it, it doesn't make it less real. There's people that don't believe in dinosaurs. They think it's all a hoax. The bones are just of critters that used to live longer so they grew bigger & many still are here in a smaller form.

Most organized religions aren't much about rituals. No more than schools or jobs are. Yes, there's tradition. Just like families have tradition. Or pretty much any given culture. Most churches aren't about judging. They aren't about thinking they're perfect. Most churches are a hospital for the spiritually sick. So to me, for an unchurched person to condemn organized religion says they don't really know about the subject. Since they aren't all the same anyway.

I'm thankful I have a belief that's makes me feel centered in other areas of life. I'm thankful I live where we can peacefully disagree.

When I died last year I saw no white light. No dead relatives. Not even my mom who had died 2 days before. I did not have a near death experience. I was dead for 17 minutes. In a coma for 5 days. Only a 2% chance of survival. The drs gave up. The power of God & the prayers my loved ones sent up are the reason I'm here. The day the drs planned to unplug me from the machines, I woke up. I was posting on Facebook within a few hours. My team of drs called it a miracle! They couldn't explain it any other way. So for anyone to call my faith mere superstition is backwards to me! Superstitious people put their faith in what they see.

Whether or not you believe in God, He still believes in you.

Has there ever been a culture that didn't believe in a creator?

Faith is the evidence of believing the unseen. It's not mysterious. Not a fairy tale. We all have it. We may put it in the wrong place.

I'm not trying to convince you. Clearly you've made up your mind at this point. It may change at another point in your life. My own faith has had weak times. I've put it in people. People are flawed & disappoint. Church leaders are people & will also be flawed & disappoint. Faith that God started it all. Faith that he set up a plan that by sacrificing His Son we can be eternally rewarded even though we aren't perfect. Faith that death isn't final. Sure sounds like a better way to me. If I'm wrong, I've led a life that made me feel good & done my best to help others. If I'm right.....well, there's some people that's not gonna be too happy!

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post #47 of 57 Old 04-03-2014, 08:56 PM
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Since you are a believer, I'm sure you would be saying the same things about Allah if you were born in Pakistan.

I'm equally sure, you won't be losing your sleep over how you will be fried in hell, as per Muslims, for not worshipping the true god called Allah, just the way no Muslim is losing sleep over how he will be condemned to eternal lake of fire, as per Christians, for not worshipping the true god called Jesus. I'm not trying to convince you either. Just saying that all human beings are basically Atheists. But some people go one god further. Cheers...


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post #48 of 57 Old 04-04-2014, 06:19 AM
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One God with many names. This isn't about Christianity, it's about after life. Yes, my beliefs are Christian. It's not my job to judge other religions. The point is believing in eternal punishment or reward according to the life you're living. It's clear to me that God doesn't expect perfection, but a person must have a goal of doing what's right. That's why there's grace. He's not waiting for us to mess up, he's like a parent. Parents want the best for their children, but still love them when they make stupid choices.

The question isn't whether or not a Muslim or Christian believes in hell, it's whether or not YOU do. I do. And I believe I'm striving not to go there. God has seen fit to help treatment cure my stage 4 cancer in a manner my drs had not seen before. All 3 tumors disappeared in record time. I thank him. My treatment was the same as everyone with my type of cancer gets. I was called a miracle by all 5 of my drs. Then the same thing happened last year when my heart stopped. Science can't explain my being alive either time. For me to not see God's hand in it would make no sense. Even my drs saw it that way. Over & over they all talked about it. They all gave God the credit. So in total 5 cancer drs & 4 cardiologists plus their staff said God did it. To me, believing in God means aiming for Heaven. If I believe in Heaven, logically there must also be hell. Simple.
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post #49 of 57 Old 04-04-2014, 11:27 AM
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You shifted your goal post from “Bible and Christ” to “One god with many names”, contrary to your previous strong position throughout the thread. Does Bible support your new position? If not, then you are being very un-Christian ! I'm fine with your new position because I don't judge people. That's religions’ and believers’ job, hell and heaven being one such judgmental position that religions and believers indulge in. You know it.

You don't judge other religions you say. But I judge all religions, because many of their extra-ordinary claims trespass right into the field of Science. I don't judge people as they are mostly misled by their primitive superstitions and Science is doing its best to bring people out of primitive superstitions.

I know that your current beliefs are Christian. And your current beliefs would have been Muslim if you were born to Muslim parents. And equally it is true that you would have been a believer, as millions of our forefathers, in Zeus or Thor or Apollo or Wotan or Odin or The Great Juju etc etc based on the place and time in human history you were born in. We know that faith follows the pattern of geopolitical boundaries. It means, a child born to parents in Afghanistan is more likely to believe that Islam is the truth, just the way a child born in Mexico is more likely to believe that Christianity is the truth. Facts and truths don't change with geopolitical boundaries. You know it. Gravity pulls things to Earth in Afghanistan, Mexico and USA. Every child and adult will have the same verifiable opinions known as facts, across their respective geopolitical boundaries. But, when it comes to primitive superstitions like religion, some adults resort to positions like only Quran or only Bhagavad Gita or only Bible, without requiring extra-ordinary evidences to buttress their extra-ordinary claims like heaven, hell, god, after-life, 72 virgins, lake of fire, eternal life – an unending list, so to speak.

It doesn't make any sense that god loves you all so much that there is eternal punishment based on the life one is leading. The example of parent and child vis--vis god and human, which you seem to take often, I’m sure my parents love me so much that they will not condemn me to eternal hell for the ‘stupid’ choices I make and neither will I do that to my children. Comparing our parents’ love to the ‘my way or highway’ kind of ‘love’ of god is not only sad but also downright insulting to the infinite love our parents show on us. Parents showing love on children is reality whereas god showing love on humans is just a superstition that one chooses to believe in. Two different things. Simple as that.

I'm not trying to convince you. But I hold Intellectual Honesty as the highest virtue and I request people to question themselves when they attribute their own well-being to god taking some special interest in them and their families. Whatever happened to the caring god regarding the passengers of flight 370 or the 9 million children under the age of 5 that die every year!

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post #50 of 57 Old 04-04-2014, 12:17 PM
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One God, many names is not contrary to the Bible or/and Christianity. So my focus is the same. Of course, location makes a difference as to custom & what we are taught in regards to religion. A true Muslim believes very much the same as a Christian. The same "rules", try your best to please your creator & love each other.

As regards to a loving, caring God allowing bad things to happen: it rains on the good & bad. But remember to a believer of pretty much any religion, death isn't "bad". Those people gone are with their creator, if they believed. Dying isn't bad for the ones dead aren't the ones sad, it's the survivors.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I have no conflict with science & being "religious". Science changes all the time. Facts change as we learn more. It doesn't have all the answers either. I've been around a few decades & have seen many things change. Facts when I was in school are seen as silly now.

In my first pregnancy my drs wouldn't believe I had premclampsia because they tested over & over for the protein marker they use to judge that. For 3 months I told them I have all the symptoms. They ignored me. Then while at a tummy check my blood pressure went dangerously high & they still were puzzled by no protein marker. They had to induce to save me & my baby. A few years later that daughter went through the exact same thing. I told her dr of my experience & he didn't listen. My younger daughter went thru the same thing with her first. Her dr listened. We defy the known science of testing for this condition. That protein marker never shows in our first pregnancy. It does show up in other pregnancies. No one knows why. Point is science is great, but also doesn't have all the answers either.

Before science knew why God instructed his people not to eat pork. Turns out pork can be deadly if not treated right. While the world thought the sun revolved around the earth God told his people the planets go around the sun. God told his people to not have sex with their relatives, turns out it it causes birth defects. God told his people to keep sex in marriage, turns out if you don't deadly deseases happen that way. So God had science of health figured out for us.

Call it whatever makes you happy, but I'm content in my beliefs & you haven't come up with anything new to argue the points.

There's an old joke that goes like this: a man was getting flooded out by rising waters. He strongly believe God would save him. The waters rose & a boat came by & the rescuers ask if he wanted to come with them. He said no, God would save him. The waters rose more. Another boat came & again he turned them down. Later he was in his roof barely out of the water. A heliocopter came. He again turned down the rescuers saying God would save him. He drown. In Heaven he asked God why he wasn't there for him? Why had he let him drown? God said "I sent 2 boats & a heliocopter."

You may have to be a believer to see how funny it is, but I think God is around to help & we just need to ask. He has the right to say no. Our wants are not always what we need. It doesn't mean He's not with us & love us. The name on your place of worship isn't the key to salvation. It's the attitude. It's not about rules. It's about love.
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post #51 of 57 Old 04-05-2014, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by princess View Post
One God, many names is not contrary to the Bible or/and Christianity. So my focus is the same. Of course, location makes a difference as to custom & what we are taught in regards to religion. A true Muslim believes very much the same as a Christian. The same "rules", try your best to please your creator & love each other.
You have Scandinavian gods, Middle-Eastern gods, Egyptian gods, Indian Sub-Continent gods, Central African gods so on and so forth. Zeus was not an Indian Sub-Continent god and neither was Jesus nor Thor or Allah. So, depending on place, you have different gods, not just different customs. Not sure how you pick one god over the other, other than your brought up influencing your choice of god. One god with many names strikes accord with your Christian belief? So, it must then be ok to take the name of Allah, Thor, The Great Juju, Odin, Sri Rama, Vishnu, Brahma, Wotan, Apollo, Mahavira, Krishna, Zeus in a Church! But, how about accepting the belief in the existence of multiple distinct gods, like how the 1.3 billion people in India believe in? There is no reason to pick your belief over that of others when belief itself means a choice that one makes. Is it not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by princess
As regards to a loving, caring God allowing bad things to happen: it rains on the good & bad. But remember to a believer of pretty much any religion, death isn't "bad". Those people gone are with their creator, if they believed. Dying isn't bad for the ones dead aren't the ones sad, it's the survivors.
Coming to the dead - I'm talking of people who are in the process of dying - 9 million kids per year under the age of 5. Wonder what happened to the all loving god, all along, that the number can come down only with human intervention as has been happening with many deadly diseases.


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Originally Posted by princess
I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I have no conflict with science & being "religious". Science changes all the time. Facts change as we learn more. It doesn't have all the answers either. I've been around a few decades & have seen many things change. Facts when I was in school are seen as silly now.
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Point is science is great, but also doesn't have all the answers either.
I don’t expect you to have all the answers, neither does Stephen Hawking have all the answers. However, I expect religion to have all the answers for the extra-ordinary claims it makes. Science, unlike religion, doesn’t pretend to know everything. As an example – there are really deeper questions about the origins of the universe and life that are not yet explained by Science. But that doesn’t mean faiths, superstitions and those hundreds of holy textbooks can. The beauty and honesty of Science is that it doesn't base itself on dogma. It is a discipline of investigation basing itself in logic, reasoning, data and verifiable evidences to draw valid and reliable conclusions. Organized superstitions, on the other hand, demand that you suspend such critical investigation. Human being has progressed due to his/her constructive critical thinking. Several beautiful minds are constantly trying to disprove each other, consequently reducing error. This is how we progressed. Religion on the other hand converts untestable and unverifiable beliefs into unshakeable truths through tradition, customs, secret revelations, miracles, institutions and passage of time. Scientists on the other hand are unfolding one mystery after another, reducing the so called god to the god of gaps. The entire universe was created by god in 6 days, taking rest on the 7th day and then a talking snake at a later date are definitely not the answers. We see talking snakes, bears, dogs, pigs and birds on kids’ shows and books but not on shows and books for grown-ups .


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Originally Posted by princess
....God instructed his people not to eat pork.......God told his people to not have sex with their relatives......God told his people to keep sex in marriage.......So God had science of health figured out for us.
When I read these kinds of statements, I always wonder if it was too hard for god to instruct people not to have slaves, not to discriminate against women, not to abuse children, not to rape. Instead god goes on to advise on how to have slaves and how to treat slaves, how to and how not to beat them, how women should dress, how women should and shouldn't talk, how to and with whom to have sex and for what reasons one should have sex. Thanks to the intellect of the civilized man, we live in a better world, a world of accountability and reason and not in a world of mere commands and unreason.


Quote:
Originally Posted by princess
....God told his people the planets go around the sun....
I thought it was Nicolaus Copernicus. No?


Quote:
Originally Posted by princess
...you haven't come up with anything new to argue the points.
I agree, nothing new from me. I’m just trying to present our everyday happenings through a different approach, so to speak. I hope believers reconsider the way they think about how kind, just and loving their god is when a tornado doesn’t rip their house but shy away from using the same standard to question for themselves about a tornado ripping somebody else’s house and killing an innocent child or killing a mother and leaving the child behind as an orphan. Organized superstitions are responsible for such detached, inconsistent and intellectually dishonest responses by believers towards human suffering.


Quote:
Originally Posted by princess
…..I think God is around to help & we just need to ask. He has the right to say no. Our wants are not always what we need. It doesn't mean He's not with us & love us.
Well, take this example: A lovely teenage child dying a premature death – his/her and or his/her family’s want is for him/her to live and you are saying that what he/she and or his/her family wants may not be what he/she and or his/her family needs? I’m saddened by the implications you are postulating but not at all surprised. And to top it all, god has the right to say no. How could a sufficiently caring human describe the rights of god in the context of a fellow human being's death? And, is there a shred of evidence for your assertions?


Quote:
Originally Posted by priness
The name on your place of worship isn't the key to salvation. It's the attitude. It's not about rules. It's about love.
I take it that it’s ok for Christians to have the name of their place of worship as a Al-Muhammadeen-Mosque and the name of the god inside as Sri Rama. And then do all this with love. Again, not sure if Bible agrees with the implications of your statement, let alone allowing you to do that. You might want to check with Bible’s ten commandments once again (just kidding) .

As I said before, it all boils down to whether or not one is prepared to voluntarily suspend ones critical thinking. I’m not prepared to suspend my critical thinking as critical thinking is what differentiates me from other fauna.

You may have the final word. Cheers... It's been a pleasure exchanging opinions with you in this thread.

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post #52 of 57 Old 04-05-2014, 02:44 AM
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I, too, have enjoyed this.

I guess in the "many gods" area I'm saying one creator God. All the regilions I'm aware of that have more than one treat the others as Demi gods. Each with their specialty. So by a God with many names, it would be the creator of the main stream religions.

Death & suffering happen. Deseases happen. Forces of nature happen. Again death is awful for the living. The dead believers go to a better place. The ones left behind have the chance to become believers. Some believe all suffering is the result of sin. Not of the dying child but of the adults in their life. Some believe bad things are to teach the rest of us to let go of earthly things. I think most of the time it's just allowing nature to take its course. Allowing us to strive to find a way to end it....like drs curing deseases, like learning how to control mental disorders, like learning if a child is raised badly they can grow up to kill or rape, causing "critical thinking".

If our freedom of choice is taken away (to cause others to suffer, rape, etc) then what would be the point of being human? Logically to have good, you usually have evil. To have right, you usually have wrong. We aren't puppets. The courses of nature are set. Actions have reactions.

Slaves happened because of greed. Humans wanting more than they could handle. Intervening to tell people to treat them well, but allowing mankind the freedom of choice. Eventually we learned better.

I believe in the book of Isaiah the earth being a sphere & going around the sun was mentioned.

This has been an interesting discussion. Where did I come from & why am I here is as old as time. If it were all cut & dry, we'd be zombies. Of course, that's where faith comes in. It gives us the chance to try to figure it out. Your faith is in science. Mine isn't. Wishing you all the best.
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post #53 of 57 Old 04-19-2014, 01:05 PM
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When I die, my loved ones will be PAID big time.

everyone should get a life insurance policy!
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post #54 of 57 Old 04-19-2014, 01:10 PM
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btw I am a muslim and believe in One God.

I use basic math to identify where humans stand and how little we know.

According to science, human beings have only seen 15% of their universe. This could be in the form of light, sound or what we perceive as reality. However, of this 15%, we only understand 5%. This means that of all the facts that we know and everything we know for sure is part of that 5% and the other 10% we cannot explain..
However, no where in this world, will you find a man that has encompassed all the 5% of the knowledge that we know in his mind. If that man did exist, he would be the most knowledgeable man on this planet but someone like that couldn't exist because it wouldn't be possible.

Therefore, an average person like you and me must know way less than the actual 5%..so if we don't even know the full 5%..

WHO THE **** ARE YOU OR THE NEXT GUY TO DECIDE ABOUT THE EXISTANCE OF GOD AND WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, TRYING TO EXPLAIN THE UNIVERSE WITH LESS THAN 5% OF THE KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE ATTAINED.

everyone shut up at this point and go live your lives..you are like ants, trying to understand rocket science.
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post #55 of 57 Old 04-20-2014, 05:33 AM
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When I die, my loved ones will be PAID big time.

everyone should get a life insurance policy!
^This

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post #56 of 57 Old 04-20-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by cD5myeleanor View Post
btw I am a muslim and believe in One God.

I use basic math to identify where humans stand and how little we know.

According to science, human beings have only seen 15% of their universe. This could be in the form of light, sound or what we perceive as reality. However, of this 15%, we only understand 5%. This means that of all the facts that we know and everything we know for sure is part of that 5% and the other 10% we cannot explain..
However, no where in this world, will you find a man that has encompassed all the 5% of the knowledge that we know in his mind. If that man did exist, he would be the most knowledgeable man on this planet but someone like that couldn't exist because it wouldn't be possible.

Therefore, an average person like you and me must know way less than the actual 5%..so if we don't even know the full 5%..

WHO THE **** ARE YOU OR THE NEXT GUY TO DECIDE ABOUT THE EXISTANCE OF GOD AND WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, TRYING TO EXPLAIN THE UNIVERSE WITH LESS THAN 5% OF THE KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE ATTAINED.

everyone shut up at this point and go live your lives..you are like ants, trying to understand rocket science.
I'm not sure by your post whether you are angry at those who argue for the existence of God, those who argue against the existence of God, or are angry in general. Regardless, I cannot let a post like this go unchallenged on Easter.

An ant may not be able to understand rocket science, but rocket science still exists. And lack of knowledge does not preclude's man's quest to learn. To the contrary. And if we're so dumb, how did "science" come up with that 15% number? How good could that be? As good as the people who wanted to close the US Patent Office sometime around 1900 because everything had already been invented?

Ultimately, God is a matter of faith - the belief in things unseen - and everyone will ultimately be proven right or wrong on this issue.

That said, there is plenty of evidence for the existence of God for those who are willing to see. Among others:

Hydrogen bonding - hydrogen bonding allows water molecules to attract each other, causing water to melt and boil at much higher temperatures than its molecular weight would suggest. Without hydrogen bonding, life as we knmow it would not exist.

Entropy - left unattended, things become more disorderly. The papers on my desk will not magically self-assemble into an ordered filing system. Statistically, throw the stack on a set of stairs enough times and eventually, one time, they will be perfectly filed. But most times they won't. This is a chief bone of contention between creationists (Someone is sorting the papers) and evolutionists (papers are constantly being thrown around, and only the good results endure). I believe creation and evolution can be reconciled, but I am convinced Someone is sorting the papers.

Your last sentence reminds me of Einstein: "The bigotry of the nonbeliever is to me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer." Whichever side you are on, there is no harm - and much good - that comes from this discussion. If you're so offended by people discussing an issue that has been around for, oh, a few millennia, then don't open the thread.

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post #57 of 57 Old 04-20-2014, 11:06 AM
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.......there is plenty of evidence for the existence of God for those who are willing to see........
Evidence is free from subjective willingness or unwillingness to 'see'.

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