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View Poll Results: If you died today, do are you certain that you would go to heaven?
Yes. Without a doubt. 17 22.97%
Think so, but not 100% sure. 23 31.08%
Don't know, but wish I could find out. 13 17.57%
Don't know. Don't care. 10 13.51%
Have other plans. 11 14.86%
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post #31 of 57 Old 04-05-2006, 10:46 AM
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Having been the giver of some pretty great gifts, I know I've been truely disapponted by the receiver's reaction!

I have known people that got "dunked" but I wouldn't call it baptism since they kept right on doing the things they'd always done. They felt like now they could do anything & still have "admission". I don't agree! I DO think following the examples we have is important. But it's not the water that makes the difference, it's the whole package of acceptance.

To me, the old law was more physical stuff, the rules & boundries, the rewards were seen, as were the punishments. The new law is more inside & spirtual.... the attidude, the mindset with the rewards/punishments being later.

Most of us can behave when we see the pay off.... but to do it on the faith there is a reward is much harder! I think it's especially hard for the past 2 generations of people in our counrty.... they are used to things instantly.

Personally I've lost far too many loved ones to think this is all there is. I want to see them again! My plan is to go to Heaven. Does that mean I think I'm perfect? NOPE!! Far from it. It does mean I have the faith that it's there & that if I show God I love Him by following the examples of how to do that, I've got my "admission". I do think I can screw it up though, if I lose my faith or stop living a life that shows he's in it. It's not a far fetched thing to me, like winning the lotto. It's personal & real.

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post #32 of 57 Old 04-05-2006, 02:38 PM
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...the rite or institution of baptism is suposed to be a public statement to those around you that you solemnly profess to believe in Jesus Christ, and have asked Him to be your personal saviour...unfortunately many churches today have made this ceremony into something with much less significance, and something not requiring such personal introspection...
...baptism by and in itself, has nothing to do with salvation, salvation is a gift of grace from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself when we acknowledge Him as Lord and saviour...
...once we surrender our lives to Christ, according to scripture, our lives our no longer ours to walk as we please, but we are to do the bidding of The Lord. Unfortunately today, its really more a matter of who or what we call Lord of our lives...as scripture says: "...for wherever you find your treasure is, there you will find your heart." Luke 12:34.
...we will never be perfect as long as we are here on this earth, it is literally impossible, that is why Christ died for us, because we could do absolutely nothing by ourselves, it took His crucification and resurrection to defeat our ultimate enemy and set us free through the forgiveness of sins, as he bore them upon the cross...does this mean we are to behave perfectly at all times, again, it is impossible as we aren't perfect, just forgiven...so don't beat yourself up princess, all who walk a circumspect lifestyle and sincerely try to keep Christ as the center of their lives, even while we can and will stumble, will ultimately go to be with Him.

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post #33 of 57 Old 04-05-2006, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
unfortunately many churches today have made this ceremony into something with much less significance, and something not requiring such personal introspection...
That's what I was trying to say.

To me it IS significant! Part of the whole package of acceptance.

I used to say, "if God wanted me perfect, he would've made me that way".... A cop-out & an easy excuse to not even try. I've since learned....he did. I'm the one who made the choices to highlight the imperfections!

Boy, we get deep here! I just love this FAMILY!!!

I know not everyone is agreeing with what's been said here, & want them to know how much I appreciate their thoughtful maturity in letting the discussion happen without harrassment!!

mmmmmaaaawwwwah to you all!
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post #34 of 57 Old 04-05-2006, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by princess
It does mean I have the faith that it's there & that if I show God I love Him by following the examples of how to do that, I've got my "admission".
But you also said grace can't be earned, and I agreed b/c:
"For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-9 if I've remembered right).

I also agree that we should love God and understand the origin of that love:
"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins."(1John 4:10)
"We love him, because he first loved us." (1John 4:19)

There's nothing we can do to get to heaven, b/c it was all done for us - - we only need to accept that which has already been done. But again, many reject this gift.
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post #35 of 57 Old 04-05-2006, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by princess
To me it IS significant! Part of the whole package of acceptance.
If you mean that after accepting Jesus, baptism should follow, then I would agree.
If you mean that baptism is needed to be accepted by God, then I disagree.

Baptism can (and should) be significant. When applied to applied to infants, to non-believers, or weekly-whether-you-need-it-or-not , significance is lost.
Unfortunately, baptism, the Lord's Supper, etc, can be divisive among Christians. Fortunately, are unified through the Gospel.
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post #36 of 57 Old 04-05-2006, 06:17 PM
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Baptism is a much bigger deal in the rest of the world especially where religion wields a pretty big stick. I know this first hand from my trip to Moldova in Eastern Europe. Typically when someone says they have accepted Jesus Christ, there isn't much commotion. However, when they are baptized, that is when they are ostracized. People then know that they are serious (of course their actions have been proving this as well along the way).
This definitely shouldn't be a cause for division. We should be unified through Christ!

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post #37 of 57 Old 04-06-2006, 09:38 AM
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Unfortunately, baptism, the Lord's Supper, etc, can be divisive among Christians. Fortunately, are unified through the Gospel.
THIS is a point my mom & I get into..... the details. I don't think God cares about them. I grew up in a church that had the EXACT same thing every week. 2 songs, a prayer, 2 songs, communion, 1 song a prayer.... you get the picture.... then they wondered why as soon as they could the teens dropped away!! I was determined that when my kids were here, they'd see that it doesn't have to mean the most boring day of the week!! We took them to youth rallys, concerts, had a houseful of teens over nearly everyday.... we'd have Bible time, praise time...but we also played & watched football & other stuff. My kids still attend church. As do MOST of the kids that were teens with them at our church.

As you can imagine, I don't do "pew warmer" well!!! I taught Sunday school when my kids were babies....then went on to work with teens when they were teens. I am having a harder time finding a niche now though. I really like being involved, but I'm having a hard time finding a spot for me.

I don't think God pays attention to brand name.... (the name on the building) or what we wear or what order we do stuff in or if we use a paino or not or if our communion is with one cup or 60....


Anyway, I don't separate spirituallity & organized religion.... but I do think we must remember that any organization on the planet will have people which means they will have flaws. I don't follow any person. Just Bible.


Baptism after.....how can it be a symbol of YOUR faith if someone else decides? I think God accepts all of us, it's up to us to accept Him back!
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post #38 of 57 Old 04-07-2006, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princess
THIS is a point my mom & I get into..... the details. I don't think God cares about them.
I agree strongly with this point, and also agree with your 'two rules' from earlier. Unfortunately, it seems to me that some RELIGIONS get too caught up in the details, and worse, sidetracked from the TRUE message of Christ. I've seen religious discussions on other message boards disintegrate into hateful bashing, and in my HUMBLE opinion, the hate expressed by "Christian" leaders such as Falwell and Robertson (not to mention that guy Phelps!) are quite a long way from the teachings of Christ. When I hear some of their messages, it's not hard to see why some people are turned off from Christianity because of it.

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post #39 of 57 Old 04-07-2006, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
the hate expressed by "Christian" leaders
It's so unfortunate!! But true!

We don't have to all agree, that's the beauty of humanity. I don't think being a Christian means shoving your belief down someone else's throat. Since the word "christian" means Christ-like, I just can't imagine that being His way of doing things.

My theory is that the pushy ones more wrapped up in themselves & not in what they're supposed to be teaching.

Oh well, there's always going to be good & bad people....even in what we perceive as the Christian area. Every group has their extremists.

People that really are Christians don't even have to tell anyone.... it's usually obvious.

I still stick to my answer.... I KNOW where I'm going!!
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post #40 of 57 Old 03-29-2013, 08:42 AM
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I've never met anyone with first-hand information of what happens in "the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveler returns...." There is certainly no universal consensus on the matter.

According to some, I meet the criteria for heaven.

Some may disagree.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.

What will be, will be.

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post #41 of 57 Old 03-29-2013, 03:18 PM
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What a really, really, really good discussion here.

The whole debate about faith or faith + works for salvation was the focus of the Reformation.

I really like this guy named Steve Brown () who has built a ministry on the doctrine of radical grace - and he is one of the most conservative people you'll ever encounter. Makes me look like an anarchist. (Anarchist, not Antichrist.) Two of his favorite sayings are appropriate here:

"There is one Messiah per Universe, and you're not it."

"When we get to Heaven, we're going to be surprised - by who's there and who's not."

Those who are there have accepted the first statement above as well as the sacrifice of Christ - and that's enough to get in.

I remember Jesus saying "In my Father's house there are many rooms." Some of us may be in a hotel on Baltic Ave, and others may be on Boardwalk. But we'll all be in the game if we accept salvation by grace.

A few other comments. Can't help it.

Princess, I was fortunate enough to grow up in a mainstream denomination congregation in which the Bible was believed and taught. As I grew older, it became harder and harder to find those kinds of congregations. I sat through an Easter sermon that had not one mention of the Resurrection. So we wound up in a few evangelical churches. They didn't have a liturgy-based order of worship, but they certainly had an order of worship: 10 minutes of praise songs, followed by sharing of needs and thanks, followed by prayer, followed by another ten minutes of praise songs, followed by a sermon. A long sermon. In one of those churches, I attended an Easter service with a 65 minute sermon in which the pastor verbally dismembered nonbelievers. Like the line in Eleanor Rigby, no one was saved. So I don't buy that some churches have a standard form and others do not. I have a friend who got burned out in an evangelical church - the only church he'd ever attended - and tried a Lutheran church one Sunday (my heritage.) I saw him later that week and he said, "Hey you know all that stuff they say back and forth? That stuff's from the BIBLE!!!"

So I don't discount most forms of worship so long as God is honored, love is abundant, and all are welcome. (But I often joke with my wife, "If I die and wake up where they're playing praise music, I'll know I'm not in Heaven.") There's one God, one path to Him, but many paths to that path.

I also saw a few comments about judgment, including Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. I think every one of us will have something in our theology to be corrected in the afterlife. But I believe we are called to judge - to call out right from wrong. I don't like some - OK - quite a few - of the rules. But I'm not in charge. Equally important is that we are told to temper our judgment with mercy - "the measure you use will be used on you." I take that to mean some of us are going to end up on Baltic Avenue instead of an upgrade to Marvin Gardens, and we may be surprised by who's on Park Place. But those things won't be enough to kick us out of the game.

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post #42 of 57 Old 03-26-2014, 03:57 PM
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Where is the option - heaven and hell are imaginary?

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post #43 of 57 Old 03-26-2014, 04:09 PM
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To some of us that's like asking if you like AT or MT & saying what about blue?
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post #44 of 57 Old 03-26-2014, 04:44 PM
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Sorry, I didn't get it. What is meant by blue?

Faith, Belief, Heaven, Hell and Organized Superstition--

I want to share my thoughts with fellow members out here.

Faith and Belief: We have been told, as kids, that faith is a virtue. We also know that belief is THE prerequisite if one has to have faith. As members of Homo sapiens sapiens, we all are privileged to possess this faculty called Critical Thinking. Critical Thinking is different from, and superior to, intelligence as we see in other animals around us. As an example: An animal reacting to rain by running for cover when it rains is showing intelligence. But that animal cannot explain the underlying mechanism that leads to rain. Thanks to our critical thinking, we are in a position to explain it. When there is a Solar Eclipse, birds behave as though it is night and are returning back to their nests. But the modern human being knows that it neither is night nor is it due to any demons, as opposed to what the dark-age man thought. So, the well informed, intellectually honest modern man neither heads back home nor does he indulge in extensive and exhaustive list of rituals. Critical Thinking is paramount in defining Homo sapiens sapiens. This is what sets us apart from other animals around us.

I'm really disappointed to see that there are quite a few votes for the first two poll options. I thought I can post this video that would give a perspective about human suffering, not only to the members who are sure without a doubt about where they are going after death, but also to others who are consumed in their 'personal relationship' with god, oblivious to the double-standards they unconsciously practice regarding human suffering around them.


No culture is immune to superstitions. As a kid, in India, I was told that Leprosy is a punishment from god to those who burn their neighbour's house in their previous birth. This led to Leprosy patients being looked down by other ‘righteous chosen’ people. It took Scientists, Researchers and Doctors to burn their midnight oil and come out with Mycobacterium leprae as the causative organism and these intellectually honest people didn’t stop there. They chose the hard way to look for solutions rather than resigning to the easier and dogmatic ways of organized superstitions in castigating the Leprosy patients. They went on to discover the medication DDS for Leprosy. All of a sudden you now see that the number of patients with Leprosy is coming down. I pointed this out to my mother, and told her sarcastically that probably the number of people who are committing the sin of burning a neighbour’s house is coming down. She conceded that she was wrong. These Scientists, Researchers, Microbiologists and Doctors brought dignity back to the lives of Leprosy patients, who were otherwise condemned as ‘sinners’ by the god-fearing ‘righteous’ people. I have never come across a peer reviewed literature that established ‘Sin Basis of Disease’. Contrary to that, we have established Microbiologic and Genetic Basis of Diseases. Superstitions are not just confined to India. I see that there are cultures around the world that have an even bigger embarrassing superstition that death is the result of sin. Provided one doesn’t have fatal congenital diseases, death occurring naturally is the final result of the ageing process in living organisms, which is easier to observe in the Animal Kingdom. I haven’t come across any peer reviewed literature that established ‘Sin basis of Death’, apart from some adults believing it to be so, contrary to observable, measurable and verifiable proofs and evidences. I acknowledge that death is hard on our emotions; very tough to come to terms with it. It is bereft of any shred of evidence and utterly baseless to say that your little child, your parent or your sibling earned death as a wage for his/her sins. Not to mention that the dogma of ‘death for sin’ in and of itself is downright denigrating.

Heaven, Hell and Organized Superstition: We celebrate birth with lots of enthusiasm and high spirits. Death is received with quite the opposite emotions. Deep down we strongly wish that we could always have our loved ones around. Organized superstitions promise to address this strong wishful thinking and human yearning, without offering a shred of evidence. These organized superstitions promise to unite us with our loved ones, and even with our pets, for eternity in heaven, no less. Such extra-ordinary claims need extra-ordinary evidences. Organized superstitions like Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism and all those thousands of yesteryear and current organized superstitions can never back their extra-ordinary claims and openly ask us to suspend our critical thinking, by saying that it is a matter of their faith and belief. What is faith and belief? Faith is an act or state of mind that involves the voluntary suspension of a human being’s critical thinking, making oneself actively and passively receptive of, and available to spread, dogma(s). It is very unfortunate to say that suspension of critical thinking is a virtue. We surely don't want our kids to be dogmatic and superstitious as we know that human well-being has thrived not on dogma and superstition but on Science, Science and Science only. As Homo sapiens sapiens, the one faculty that differentiates us from animals is our ability to use our critical faculties, and faith explicitly asks us that we suspend this most significant aspect of being a Homo sapiens sapiens. Being privileged to be a Human, I refuse to live like just another intelligent animal sans Intellect. I rejoice the fact that I’m a Human Being and I wouldn’t allow illiterate, superstition ridden peasants from the dark ages to tell me about what causes disease and death. There is nothing insulting in accepting that our future generations, kids, grand kids and so on are better informed than us. Likewise, we are better informed than our forefathers, who were much more superstitious than us.

So where do we go after we die? Well, we just go back to earth and our atoms will be recycled. Thanks to bacteria and other scavengers. End of story .

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post #45 of 57 Old 03-27-2014, 05:36 PM
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Bump. Any takers/debaters?


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