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post #1 of 12 Old 01-20-2018, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Accord vs. Pilot Safety

The growing push towards SUV's makes me wonder how safe a sedan is an a head on collision. How much safer is a full size SUV like the Pilot in an accident than an Accord? The Accord can certainly stop and maneuver more quickly to avoid an accident in the first place. But what about a head on collision or T Bone collision with another vehicle? I've been told Volvo is very safe and heavy vehicles are safe, but how safe is the Accord?

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post #2 of 12 Old 01-20-2018, 02:55 PM
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I'd like to know this as well.

It would be great if some organization tested vehicles in areas such as crashworthiness (how well a vehicle protects its occupants in a crash) and crash avoidance and mitigation, and then published this data for car shoppers to see and compare.

They could call themselves the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety or National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
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post #3 of 12 Old 01-20-2018, 05:06 PM
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Well, the accord will certainly be more likely to nosedive if the other vehicle is tall, like a brodozer. From crash videos of the 7th gen, it is clear it nosedives very easily, the 9th gen has a more square front end, so it probably doesn't do that.

Now the problem with getting a larger and heavier vehicle because it is "more safe" is that everyone else follows by getting larger and heavier vehicles that will wreak more destruction, so it pretty much evens itself out, and now we are stuck with larger and heavier vehicles that are slower, get worse gas mileage, and block the sightline for shorter vehicles. The true losers are motorcyclists and pedestrians, who have very little to NO protection against such crashes.

So, the pilot is probably safer, but by getting a pilot you would be therefore endangering everyone else a little bit more everything else being equal. Now, you can improve your safety without a doubt, no questions asked by doing the following:

Not necessarily in order


  1. Putting the phone out of reach, not being distracted by the children, ect.

  2. Sitting a proper distance from the steering wheel/airbag. I cannot tell you how many customers' cars I have got into that had seating positions that put them in the kill zone if the airbag were to go off. It is scary how much energy is in a deploying airbag, you do not want it to hit you, it is supposed to be the other way around. See the video below of how far an airbag can launch a 20+lb spare tire, your head doesn't weigh that much. Sitting too far away can be dangerous too. Aside from lack of control issues, there can also be issues with your limbs being too extended. If your legs and arms are straight out and you get in a crash, they may push forward instead of bending, leading to horrendous compound fractures.

  3. To add to the other dumb stuff that people do with their cars, mirror positioning and floormat placement were common offences. If you can see your car in the side mirrors, they are not adjusted properly. If 2/3 of the mirror view is covered with the side of your car, then words appropriate for this forum cannot describe your stupidity. There should only be ONE floormat for the driver, and it should be DESIGNED FOR THE CAR. Do not use universal floormats unless they actually fit well and are restrained. I have gotten into customers' cars that had THREE floormats. With that many floormats you could not use full throttle in an emergency, and the risk of the mats having the throttle stick to them is needlessly high.

  4. Driving defensively. Do not assume that by driving like everyone else is that you are driving safely. Normal drivers do stupid and pointlessly dangerous stuff all the time, and seem to not be able to recognize dangerous situations. Seriously. There are situations where I can easily spot potential danger where all the sheeple just continue along nonchalantly. These are adults, who have been driving for a LONG time, and they might as well be children. If you haven't spent countless hours watching crash videos, start now, it is a great way to learn where things can, and DO go wrong.

  5. Know the limits of your car. I frequently drive my car at the edges of its limits(cornering), so I know what it can do, and what it can't do. I read a youtube comment about a study that analyzed cars that crashed on corners, and a significant amount(don't remember the percentage) simply chickened out thinking their car couldn't turn that well and just went straight, braked, and crashed. Now that was a youtube comment, and I couldn't actually FIND the study, but I find it completely believable.

  6. Maintain your car! This is much less likely to cause an accident than driver error, but unlike driver error is MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE AVOIDABLE. Maintaining good tire condition and tire pressure is at the top of this list. Your tires connect you to the road, you want to stay on the road, right? Low tire pressure is much more dangerous than high tire pressure, which seems to be a common misconception. The more air in your tires(to a degree), the more weight they can support. If your tire pressure drops too low, the load capacity of the tires may be exceeded by the weight of the vehicle alone, leading to overheating and failure. Tire condition is very important too. The more tread you have, the more volume of water your tires can evacuate before lifting. If you have no tread, your tires will not hesitate to try and climb/squish the water. Water isn't compressible, and water doesn't grip rubber like rubber grips asphalt. If your tires have worn to the point where you can see a clearly different section of rubber(called the secondary rubber), then it is definitely time to replace the tires. Same thing if you see cords, but for my sake, and the sake of other tire changers, please get new tires before the cords are showing. Those suckers are SHARP! You CAN safely drive with tires that have very little tread, IF you avoid water like the plague. If it starts raining, don't drive. Also, avoid puddles like the plague. The last critical tire maintenance item would be making sure your wheels are torqued on properly. Having a wheel come off can easily make you lose control of the vehicle, and now there is an object in the road that is a hazard to others. A truck lost a wheel around my area not too long ago. The wheel ended up jumping the median, headed into oncoming traffic, and collided with a car at windshield height. The driver died. The only other maintenance item I would consider critical to safety would be brakes. You want to be able to stop, right? The problem here is that some people don't replace their brakes for far, FAR too long, and then go into completely uncharted territory. Are the brakes going to work the next time the pedal is pressed, or is a piston going to pop out and drain all the pressure out of the brake system?








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post #4 of 12 Old 01-20-2018, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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I'd like to know this as well.

It would be great if some organization tested vehicles in areas such as crashworthiness (how well a vehicle protects its occupants in a crash) and crash avoidance and mitigation, and then published this data for car shoppers to see and compare.

They could call themselves the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety or National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
"A five-star government crash-test rating should mean that new car you're eyeing is plenty safe, right? Not so fast, says advocacy group the Center for Auto Safety.

In connection with the release of the "2016 Car Book" by Jack Gillis, the center argues that the government rating system is too easy, noting that 99 percent of 2016 models tested got either four stars or the top five-star rating."



I'd rather be in a Suburban in some crashes than an Accord even if the Accord has a 5 Star Crash Rating especially if I'm driving my kids. There is some physics involved and mass is important. F=MA
Sure an Accord is better than a SmartCar or Fiat but it's size and weight is one drawback of a small car. I don't know about you but the freeways are nuts around here.

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post #5 of 12 Old 01-20-2018, 07:34 PM
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There's no easy answer to this complex question. Bigger is safer generally and newer is certainly safer.

My 16 YO daughter is 5'1 and I'm putting her in an SUV. That small, I want her higher off the ground if she is ever hit. Using that logic, wouldn't we all be better higher up (just don't get too high up there and risk a roll over-they account for 3% of crashes and 25% of deaths so if you flip, your odds are much higher to die (even with a belt)).

Regarding the "tank" Suburban; it's a bit of a myth. I don't trust GM cars in crashes despite crash test results where some do well. (some of my bias is based on iihs driver death data and observations of local crashes).

Less than half a mile from my house, 4 idiot teens were in an Xterra and they hit a Suburban head on. The 4 teens were walking around dazed. The passenger in the Sub was unhurt as was the toddler in the child seat. The driver of the sub had to be cut out and had a broken pelvis. All were belted. The picture in the paper showed a recognizable Xterra (smaller and at least 500 lbs lighter) and the sub was obliterated. I'm a car guy and could not make out it was a sub.

Two people were killed in a head on a couple years ago. Both belted in a Rendezvous (not a tiny SUV) hit a Dodge Nitro (not a giant) and the nitro driver was hurt and released from the hospital in a couple of days. The Rendezvous was obliterated.

Let's take a look at iihs driver deaths for the Accord. This takes into account all crashes with all vehicles and single vehicle crashes. It is rated at 36. The average for 2014 is 30 so it is worse than average despite excellent crash test results. Not terrible though. The much bigger Impala is rated at 60 which is awful, so bigger isn't always better.

When you study death rates, it needs to be factored in with crash tests. Some death rates make absolutely no sense. The Crown Vic and Marquis are identical cars and have significant differences in death rates and they have the same blue hair, Florida white belt white shoe drivers. Several cases of big differences between 2wd and AWD of the same car usually with 2wd being better rated inexplicably.

2011-14 Mid size 4 door driver deaths Accord 36, average for all cars 30.

2011-14 Pilot death rates 15, Jeep Cherokee and CX9 had ZERO driver deaths. By all rights, the CX9 should have been a disaster based on crash tests. POOR in the small overlap and MARGINAL on the roof crush. I would NEVER buy this "death trap" but from 2011-2014 not a single driver died in a CX9. The Pilot for 2014 also had a poor rating in the small overlap yet was superior to the stellar crash test Accord which had 36 driver deaths vis a vis the poor crash test Pilot with only 15 driver deaths. Is that weight and height givng an advantage? Few sedans have 0 driver deaths. The Legacy was at 0 for 2011 and as I recall,
all others were SUVs or Vans and nearly all were AWD


Old car vs new car death NHTSA data.

New small car vs old big safe tank. Modern high strength steel is THE game changer.

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post #6 of 12 Old 01-20-2018, 08:39 PM
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My 07 Honda versus my company's '18 Ford Transit - the Ford will win in a head-on. At 6,400 pounds, it's almost 2x the weight of the Accord.

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post #7 of 12 Old 01-20-2018, 08:52 PM
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My 07 Honda versus my company's '18 Ford Transit - the Ford will win in a head-on. At 6,400 pounds, it's almost 2x the weight of the Accord.
And you're higher up in the transit. One will do better if crash forces at impact are at the feet vs the face. Hopefully, the cell will protect the feet.

Almost certain the Transit will obliterate an Accord just like a dump truck will obliterate a Transit. In either case, the driver of the heavier vehicle may not fare as well as expected if the passenger cell collapses (despite the weight advantage) e.g Xterra vs Suburban.

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post #8 of 12 Old 01-20-2018, 10:11 PM
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Cars are indeed safer which is why driving a newer car is better.

Years listed at iihs cover 3-4 years of cars prior to the year listed. See the link below for full details.

In 2002, average driver deaths were 87 and in 2014 it dropped to 30. Not all cars show up every year on iihs and some cars on the list released aren't always on their website. I need to contact them about that.

Were I to drive a 15 year old car, it would be an Rx or XC 90 Volvo although the XC in '08 had a rating of 28. Not stellar and more than double the RX at 12. Even in 2002, the Rx was rated at a stellar 17 compared to the 87 average.

Legacy had 0 deaths in 2011 and 20 for 2014. The newer car should be better but you can't take these numbers too strictly. One has to consider these as broad and general.

IIHS lists confidence intervals which can be more helpful that raw numbers. 20 is still very good and below the average. 2011 Mazda 6 is rated well above average at 54 and 2014 Maxima at 59. You can look at big differences like an Impala for 2014 at 60 which is insane for a car that big. 2011 Accord rated at 19 while 2014 rated at 36 which is a surprise.

The absolute worst vehicle where there is data is the 2002 Chevy (no surprise GM) rated at 308 when the average at that time was 87.

To confuse death rates even further, why would a Crown Vic be rated at 4 and a Marquis at 57? Its a fluke or defies logic.




For 2011 here's the list of ZERO driver's deaths

Audi A4 4WD.
Honday Odyssey.
Kia Sorento 2WD.
Lexus RX 350 4WD.
Mercedes-Benz GL-Class 4WD.
Subaru Legacy 4WD.
Toyota Highlander hybrid 4WD.
Toyota Sequioa 4WD.
Volvo XC90 4WD (not on iihs website but listed in the press release)

For 2014 here's the list. Notice, only one repeat. Over time, there have to be some deaths which explains the lack of repeat. Going back to 2002 as far as the data goes, one vehicle is consistently near the top and that's the Lexus Rx. Note that the 4wd in 2011 had 0 and the 2wd in 2014 had 0. Luck of the draw I guess. Only a few sedans and only 2 small cars on either list.
Audi Q7 SUV
Volkswagen (VLKAF) Tiguan two-wheel-drive SUV
Toyota Tacoma Double Cab long bed four-wheel-drive pickup
Mazda CX-9 two-wheel-drive SUV
Audi A6 all-wheel-drive
Jeep Cherokee all-wheel-drive SUV
BMW 535 i and is
BMW 535xi
Lexus RX 350 two-wheel-drive SUV
Lexus CT 200h
Mercedes-Benz M-class SUV (called GLE-class in its current version)

Study data here.

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Originally Posted by mbk734 View Post
The growing push towards SUV's makes me wonder how safe a sedan is an a head on collision. How much safer is a full size SUV like the Pilot in an accident than an Accord? The Accord can certainly stop and maneuver more quickly to avoid an accident in the first place. But what about a head on collision or T Bone collision with another vehicle? I've been told Volvo is very safe and heavy vehicles are safe, but how safe is the Accord?
If you are asking if the Accord is safe in a head-on, the answer is yes. Is it as safe a safe Pilot? That answer is no. How much more does the Pilot's extra 700 pounds of mass protect the occupants? That is harder to quantify. If both cars drive head-on into a brick wall, that extra weight means nothing, If a Pilot and Accord have a head-on, the Pilot absorbs less of the total force. If either the Pilot or the Accord drive into dump truck, both the Pilot and Accord lose. In the end, if minimizing injury from an accident is your top priority you should probably buy the Pilot over the Accord. Size does matter.

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post #10 of 12 Old 01-24-2018, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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I've had several people compliment that they like my car but they prefer the "safety" of an SUV. Larger, heavier, but I really wonder how much safer it is if at all. Certainly there are more SUV's and distracted drivers (phone, meds, drugs, old, young, foreign, etc.) on the road than ever. There are also poorly built or older SUV's that are less safe than an Accord. Rollover risk is much higher in an SUV and they take longer to brake or avoid an accident. I would argue that a sedan is safer in some instances with defensive driving.
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post #11 of 12 Old 01-24-2018, 03:57 PM
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If a family is going out for shopping or whatnot, an SUV would do, just to protect the kiddos and the passenger (and hopefully the driver too).. However, recently (within the past year or two), a Porsche Cayman got into an accident on I-4 and the occupants in the vehicle were visitors.... but the unfortunate thing was that both parents died on the spot (sitting in the front) and the kids got some bruises and scratches and their hearts broken to hear their parents didn't make it out alive... Sometimes, SUVs aren't safer than a Yugo, for the front occupants.


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post #12 of 12 Old 01-25-2018, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbk734 View Post
I've had several people compliment that they like my car but they prefer the "safety" of an SUV. Larger, heavier, but I really wonder how much safer it is if at all. Certainly there are more SUV's and distracted drivers (phone, meds, drugs, old, young, foreign, etc.) on the road than ever. There are also poorly built or older SUV's that are less safe than an Accord. Rollover risk is much higher in an SUV and they take longer to brake or avoid an accident. I would argue that a sedan is safer in some instances with defensive driving.
"Safer" = "I can piss around when driving because I'll live if I crash". I've noticed a lot of vehicle commercials, ones focused on "look how huge and safe our car is!" frequently feature an out-of-nowhere collision or near miss that would only happen in the movies. I think people actually believe these situations can happen and not have it be completely their fault. Like there was one where a mother was literally posting a photo of her child, who was in the back seat of the moving car, on social media, and then the car crashed. Like... That was your fault. This commercial is selling ignorance.

IMO there should be a higher class license test/certification for driving PPVs over a certain weight limit. Not just "cars" (which in my state means any vehicle, or combination of vehicles 26,000 lbs. or less) and then suddenly you're in B class trucks. Lumping every car from the Nissan Leaf --> Chevrolet Suburban into one class is stupid and dangerous. You can put a 16 year old behind the wheel of either and send them on their merry way. Which one would I rather have them sleeping through basic driver training, then later lose control of and plow into me head-on with? I can't afford a tank of a car to keep myself "safer" from stupidity/ignorance...
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