My stud woes continue. Can anyone relate? - Drive Accord Honda Forums | radio-pro.ru
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post #1 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
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My stud woes continue. Can anyone relate?

This is going to be a long winded post, but to appreciate the headache of such a simple matter it may be worth the read.


I purchased winter wheels and tires 2 years ago. Along with swapping those on and off as well as tire rotations, my studs have seen a good amount of use. I've always used a torque wrench set to 90 ft lbs. At around ~80,000 miles this spring I took my winter tires off. Putting the winter tires on a few months prior actually had a lot of squeaking taking the lug nuts off. Then came the spring and taking the lug nuts off led to a few of them shearing off on the rear of the car. I said to myself "okay this isn't totally unexpected given the previous time giving off so much squeaking." I wasn't exactly prepared for this to happen and was left fighting with those stupid phillips head screws in the rotors forever and broke 1 impact wrench in the process. Not the worst day but set me back a few hours on a simple 20 minute job of changing tires.

Now, come this winter I THOUGHT I was prepared for another headache. I actually ordered a new set of lug nuts and 20 brand new studs to replace everything and start fresh. As predicted I snapped two studs, 1 front and 1 rear (if anyone is wondering the threads appear perfectly fine, but some rusting under the lug nuts). No big deal, take off the rear rotors easily since I trashed those stupid retainer phillips head screws in the spring, bang out the rear studs and replace them. Get to the front of the car and the stress comes crashing back. The phillips head screws in the front rotors of course will not come out no matter the method, ended up taking a drill to them (wish I would have though of this a hell of a lot earlier). The axle nut ends up being a completely different nightmare. I knock out the retaining tab on the nut and my 450 ft lb air impact doesn't budge it. Jumping on a 3/4" breaker bar doesn't work, and finally my buddies 1300 ft lb electric impact doesn't work all while heating it lightly with a torch (didn't want to cook the bearing grease). Thought I was stuck pulling the spindle and axle and taking it to a shop. FINALLY resorted to a 6' length on 1" pipe from Lowes and jumped up and down on the 3/4" breaker bar with and popped that damn nut loose. What I unfortunately discovered after pulling the rotor off was that the hub assembly prevents you from replacing studs, and it's a damn pressed in hub assembly. A desperate hour of slide hammering to pull the hub eventually lead me to destroying the bearing and hub which never actually came out. Now I have my spindle pulled from the car, waiting on a new hub and bearing from Honda, and then have to take it to a shop to repair.

I'm not the fastest mechanic so this took the majority of my weekend and has left me without a vehicle for a few days. All of this because my studs apparently are made out of playdough. Is anyone having such troubles with their studs breaking? I'm dumbfounded after being so incredibly careful with installing my lug nuts and torquing them to factor ratings. When I get the replacement hub from Honda I may bang out the studs and replace them with different ones from Advanced Auto. Also, does anyone ever apply anti-seize to their studs? I always heard this changes torque ratings and potentially can lead to studs loosening. *EDIT* Just to clarify I am NOT currently doing this.


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post #2 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 08:42 AM
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Studs snapping is usually because of stud stretching due to over-torquing the lug nuts.

Are you certain the 90 foot pounds on your torque wrench is actually 90 foot pounds?

Which type of lug nuts are you using? Are they "ball seat" lug nuts, or "acorn seat"? Honda and Acura OEM are ball seat. The wheels matter- not the car. So if you are using Honda/Acura wheels, use ball seat lug nuts. If you are using aftermarket wheels, chances are (check with manufacturer) you may need to use acorn or even flat style.

Are your winter wheels aftermarket? If so, are they the correct hub size or did you add hub-centric rings?


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post #3 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 08:54 AM
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I only managed to damage a stud on my car once in my lifetime. I mistakenly thought that I should be adding anti-seize to my studs to help make them easier to remove.

Little that I knew, the anti-seize messes up the torque. The less resistance the more easier it is to over torque your lugs.

I thought I was putting the Honda spec 80lb/ft but I was putting more like 150lb/ft or more.

You are definitely over torquing your lugs one way or the other. Either clean the anti-seize off your lugs or your studs and re-torque to 80lbs/ft or get a new torque wrench.

I would also suggest that you hand tighten the lugs with the car jacked up before you tighten. This ensures the lugs are on straight, if they cross thread or are hard to get on the studs they will not tighten correctly and will stretch the stud.
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post #4 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
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I'm certain my torque wrench is working. I tighten to 90 ft lbs. The 450 ft lb impact could not remove a few when I took the wheels off this past weekend. No chance my wrench went wack and I managed to over torque them past 450. I have two sets of wheels and lug nuts. One of them being my factory sport rims and honda lug nuts that came from the dealership and am pretty sure they are ball type. The winter set I ordered from Tirerack.com as a steel wheel/tire package so I assume they sent the appropriate lug nut style (I did not have a selection).



As far as hub size or hub centric rings, I cannot say I remember anything specific to this, and do not understand what you are referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 08EX-L View Post
I only managed to damage a stud on my car once in my lifetime. I mistakenly thought that I should be adding anti-seize to my studs to help make them easier to remove.

Little that I knew, the anti-seize messes up the torque. The less resistance the more easier it is to over torque your lugs.

I thought I was putting the Honda spec 80lb/ft but I was putting more like 150lb/ft or more.

You are definitely over torquing your lugs one way or the other. Either clean the anti-seize off your lugs or your studs and re-torque to 80lbs/ft or get a new torque wrench.

I would also suggest that you hand tighten the lugs with the car jacked up before you tighten. This ensures the lugs are on straight, if they cross thread or are hard to get on the studs they will not tighten correctly and will stretch the stud.
I should have clarified a little further. I am NOT putting anti-seize on my studs. I install everything dry and have verified my torque wrench is accurate against other torque wrenches.

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Last edited by RickBlaine; 11-20-2017 at 09:10 AM. Reason: DAS MERGE! TWO POSTS BECOME ONE! MULTI-QUOTE FEATURE IS OUR FRIEND!
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post #5 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 09:14 AM
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OK, well who put the wheels on last? Prior to you needing a 450 foot pound driver to attempt to remove the lug nuts?

Hub-centric: You can search TireRack's site for an excellent write-up, but basically it is the "hole" size of the wheel where it sits on the car's hub. Almost all car wheels are within a few millimeters of one another- but "close" is not good enough.

The only other thing I can think of is incorrect lug nuts with a bad thread count or thread pitch. I've seen some incorrect ones once installed on a car....

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post #6 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 08EX-L View Post
I would also suggest that you hand tighten the lugs with the car jacked up before you tighten. This ensures the lugs are on straight, if they cross thread or are hard to get on the studs they will not tighten correctly and will stretch the stud.
You will NEVER EVER screw up a stud if you follow this advice.
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post #7 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Ironically enough I've had all the lugs go on smooth. I actually had a period where I had lug nuts magically loosening. I've done all the work on my car. I can accept that fact that they are snapping because I've continued using them after hearing and experiencing problems with them in the past. The hard part to understand is why and how the studs are degrading so fast. I have an unused set of lug nuts that I plan to use with the Sport rims come this spring. Maybe I'll toss the lug nuts from Tirerack and use those on my winter wheels. The winter wheels nuts were open centered, whereas my replacement summer nuts are closed. Not sure this will matter unless the stud bottoms out in the nuts but that's doubtful and should be obviously not tightening all the way.
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You will NEVER EVER screw up a stud if you follow this advice.
Always do. Hand tighten while in the air, drop the car and final torque on the ground.
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Last edited by RickBlaine; 11-20-2017 at 09:48 AM. Reason: DAS MERGE! TWO POSTS BECOME ONE! MULTI-QUOTE FEATURE IS OUR FRIEND!
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post #8 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 08EX-L View Post
I only managed to damage a stud on my car once in my lifetime. I mistakenly thought that I should be adding anti-seize to my studs to help make them easier to remove.

Little that I knew, the anti-seize messes up the torque. The less resistance the more easier it is to over torque your lugs.

I thought I was putting the Honda spec 80lb/ft but I was putting more like 150lb/ft or more.

You are definitely over torquing your lugs one way or the other. Either clean the anti-seize off your lugs or your studs and re-torque to 80lbs/ft or get a new torque wrench.

I would also suggest that you hand tighten the lugs with the car jacked up before you tighten. This ensures the lugs are on straight, if they cross thread or are hard to get on the studs they will not tighten correctly and will stretch the stud.
Would using PB Blaster as an anti-rust agent have the same effect as anti-seize on torque measurements?

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post #9 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hondo1 View Post
Would using PB Blaster as an anti-rust agent have the same effect as anti-seize on torque measurements?
Visual inspection of my studs and lug nuts do not show signs of thread damage, but rusting is visible. If this is a viable option over anti-seize then this may help my scenario. Would love to know about PB use on studs.

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post #10 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 09:49 AM
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post #11 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 10:10 AM
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80 ft-lb here. When my studs start to squeak I hit em with WD40. and no, anti-seize does not change torque.

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post #12 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 10:23 AM
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Would using PB Blaster as an anti-rust agent have the same effect as anti-seize on torque measurements?
Yes.

Clean the lugs with brake cleaner to remove the pb blaster if it was necessary to remove the lugs using the PBB.

Reduce the torque by about 10-15% from what I've read when using oils. Using anti-seize reduce by 25%.

Wire brush the rust off.

AFTER torquing the lug nuts on the stud, protect the exposed threads of the stud using a removable threadlock material. DON'T USE THE RED THREADLOCK, USE THE MEDIUM BLUE OR LOW PURPLE.
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post #13 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
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Would using PB Blaster as an anti-rust agent have the same effect as anti-seize on torque measurements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by qman View Post
80 ft-lb here. When my studs start to squeak I hit em with WD40. and no, anti-seize does not change torque.
Any kind of lubricant can change the torque by up to 40%



Some estimate that adding a lubricant could reduce the required torque reading by up to 40 percent!




If bolt threads are lubricated the torque required to achieve the bolt tension is reduced.



Because the use of lubricant makes it easier to turn the bolt, less torque is going to be needed.
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post #14 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 08EX-L View Post
Any kind of lubricant can change the torque by up to 40%



Some estimate that adding a lubricant could reduce the required torque reading by up to 40 percent!




If bolt threads are lubricated the torque required to achieve the bolt tension is reduced.



Because the use of lubricant makes it easier to turn the bolt, less torque is going to be needed.
Nice "go to" reference list.

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post #15 of 33 Old 11-20-2017, 11:13 AM
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Even though I just read it on the interweb, I remain skeptical. I may, and probably will, come around eventually but I have to mull it over for a bit and wrap my remaining functional brain cells on it.


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