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post #1 of 24 Old 05-23-2011, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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Type-F and Honda automatic transmission, an opinion

There have been some entertaining threads about transmission fluids and Honda transmissions lately that I thought I would address in a separate thread.

I believe Honda understood the root cause of the V6 transmission failures several years ago- HEAT! If I remember, the design of the transmission case was causing the fluid to overheat and break down. Once the transmission fluid breaks down, the transmission will fail as the lubricating properties no longer can perform their designed task. The goal of the “jet kit” fix was to cool the area of the case that was causing the problem and stop the transmission fluid from overheating. I assume the transmissions that were being replaced had a “fix” from Honda in the case that no longer restricted the flow of fluid causing it to overheat. I could go look all this stuff up again, but if I remember correctly, that was the root cause analysis of the issue.

The reason a transmission cooler would not fix the issue was due to the design restriction in the case. IE, the fluid was cooked in the restricted area of the transmission. That’s not to say that a transmission cooler is a bad thing, they are always a good addition to an automatic transmission. That’s why almost all trucks with a factory towing package and many high performance vehicles also include an auxiliary transmission cooler.

As far as “Type-F” transmission fluid goes, if my memory serves me, that is “FOMOC” Ford Motor Company designed fluid used in production vehicles for years! Type -F fluid has been around since at least the 1960’s and was always considered a quick way to modify (Speed up) the shift characteristics of other automatic transmissions. It has always been the first upgrade that anyone who drives a high performance Chrysler automatic transmission known as the 904, 727 series or ”Torque flights “ has under taken to speed up the shift characteristics. Modified value bodies that increased the line pressure at WOT also were a modification that would speed up the shifting with the goal of getting a chirp of the tires going into second gear. Also if I remember Chrysler specified no drain intervals for torque flights under normal conditions. This goes back to the 1960’s when they first were introduced. They are still a staple of high performance racing and the most built proof automatic transmission ever built.

Now we live in a time where smooth slurred shifts of the transmission are expected by a public that has no real interest in automobiles. The engineers are most likely building around these parameters and do not have a say into doing what they may like to do. So the friction modifiers are added because most people today don’t want to feel the transmission shifting. To accomplish this task a lot of manufactures pull timing out of the motor when shifting gears. Faster clutch engagement will always prolong the clutch discs in an automatic transmission. However this increased shock may stress other internal components of the transmission.

Without “proof” it is hard to say that any Type-F transmission fluid would increase the shift characteristics of any transmission to the point of causing damage (My opinion), however they may “firm up” the shifts to where you can feel them and prolong the clutch disc life.

So do whatever you want, it’s not likely that any of these fluid are going to cause any damage to your transmission.


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post #2 of 24 Old 05-23-2011, 09:02 AM
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post #3 of 24 Old 05-23-2011, 07:38 PM
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Entertaining yes. I posted merely a review.... as I recall from last week.
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post #4 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 01:51 AM
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very good read. i have the redline type F fluid in my transmission, did the flush a few months ago

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post #5 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 02:51 AM
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post #6 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 09:15 AM
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post #7 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 09:43 AM
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While F type may not cause damage, if you're looking for any goodwill replacement/assistance from Honda, they will quickly give you a big no if anything other than Honda fluid was used.

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post #8 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golftango View Post
While F type may not cause damage, if you're looking for any goodwill replacement/assistance from Honda, they will quickly give you a big no if anything other than Honda fluid was used.
That's a fair statement. I'm having some issues now with the trans on my 8th gen. My dealer and the Honda rep who is now involved seem to think it's something to do with the lock up on the torque converter. I'm getting shuddering on the 2-3 upshift at very very light throttle. First thing they asked me was when was the fluid changed and what fluid was used. I said the fluid has never been changed because the mileage minder hasn't instructed me to. Car has 58,000 km on it. They were fine with that.

I specifically asked today about the Honda and non-Honda fluids - the rep said (as I'd expect a Honda rep to say) that he's unaware of any issues due to Honda fluid and that Type F fluid was a sure fire path to a voided transmission warranty, and that Honda will test the fluid now that more and more people are, in his words, foolishly using Type F thinking it's better for the transmission.

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post #9 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBrian View Post
There have been some entertaining threads about transmission fluids and Honda transmissions lately that I thought I would address in a separate thread.

I believe Honda understood the root cause of the V6 transmission failures several years ago- HEAT! If I remember, the design of the transmission case was causing the fluid to overheat and break down. Once the transmission fluid breaks down, the transmission will fail as the lubricating properties no longer can perform their designed task. The goal of the “jet kit” fix was to cool the area of the case that was causing the problem and stop the transmission fluid from overheating. I assume the transmissions that were being replaced had a “fix” from Honda in the case that no longer restricted the flow of fluid causing it to overheat. I could go look all this stuff up again, but if I remember correctly, that was the root cause analysis of the issue.

The reason a transmission cooler would not fix the issue was due to the design restriction in the case. IE, the fluid was cooked in the restricted area of the transmission. That’s not to say that a transmission cooler is a bad thing, they are always a good addition to an automatic transmission. That’s why almost all trucks with a factory towing package and many high performance vehicles also include an auxiliary transmission cooler.

As far as “Type-F” transmission fluid goes, if my memory serves me, that is “FOMOC” Ford Motor Company designed fluid used in production vehicles for years! Type -F fluid has been around since at least the 1960’s and was always considered a quick way to modify (Speed up) the shift characteristics of other automatic transmissions. It has always been the first upgrade that anyone who drives a high performance Chrysler automatic transmission known as the 904, 727 series or ”Torque flights “ has under taken to speed up the shift characteristics. Modified value bodies that increased the line pressure at WOT also were a modification that would speed up the shifting with the goal of getting a chirp of the tires going into second gear. Also if I remember Chrysler specified no drain intervals for torque flights under normal conditions. This goes back to the 1960’s when they first were introduced. They are still a staple of high performance racing and the most built proof automatic transmission ever built.

Now we live in a time where smooth slurred shifts of the transmission are expected by a public that has no real interest in automobiles. The engineers are most likely building around these parameters and do not have a say into doing what they may like to do. So the friction modifiers are added because most people today don’t want to feel the transmission shifting. To accomplish this task a lot of manufactures pull timing out of the motor when shifting gears. Faster clutch engagement will always prolong the clutch discs in an automatic transmission. However this increased shock may stress other internal components of the transmission.

Without “proof” it is hard to say that any Type-F transmission fluid would increase the shift characteristics of any transmission to the point of causing damage (My opinion), however they may “firm up” the shifts to where you can feel them and prolong the clutch disc life.

So do whatever you want, it’s not likely that any of these fluid are going to cause any damage to your transmission.

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post #10 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBrian View Post
... The goal of the “jet kit” fix was to cool the area of the case that was causing the problem and stop the transmission fluid from overheating....
The jet kit is placed directly over the 2nd gear that was found in some cases NOT to receive any lubrication at all. They just removed a bolt and placed that jet kit on top to direct oil to the 2nd gear. When they inspected all of them years ago, they did take photos of the 2nd gear, through the hole from that bolt they removed, and checked for discoloration of the metal on the 2nd gear. Honda has maintained a database of these photos. How they use them I have no idea. But it is obvious that they collected evidence they can use years later to see how bad things have deteriorated or how much that jet kit has prevented further damage.

I agree with you, oil cooking is the major problem. People floor their cars as soon as the light turns green, each and every time! This isn't a race car! If people want a BMW M3 they should go get a BMW M3. If they can't afford one, they should adjust their driving styles and not beat up their cars. Give me an 8th gen auto v6 for a week... I'll beat it up and kill the transmission and then go to the dealer and bitch about it. That is not right.
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post #11 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TonyWare View Post
The jet kit is placed directly over the 2nd gear that was found in some cases NOT to receive any lubrication at all. They just removed a bolt and placed that jet kit on top to direct oil to the 2nd gear. When they inspected all of them years ago, they did take photos of the 2nd gear, through the hole from that bolt they removed, and checked for discoloration of the metal on the 2nd gear. Honda has maintained a database of these photos. How they use them I have no idea. But it is obvious that they collected evidence they can use years later to see how bad things have deteriorated or how much that jet kit has prevented further damage.+
That's what the Acura dealer did to our 2003 TL-S. My wife and I still miss that car; 14.93 94Mph and 30Mpg on mostly 87 octane.

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post #12 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 12:42 PM
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the rep said (as I'd expect a Honda rep to say) that he's unaware of any issues due to Honda fluid and that Type F fluid was a sure fire path to a voided transmission warranty, and that Honda will test the fluid now that more and more people are, in his words, foolishly using Type F thinking it's better for the transmission.
I'm watching from the side line this time, but someone else has voiced my words. Let me grab my 5 gallon popcorn.
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post #13 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 12:56 PM
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Its never been proven that heat was related to the majorty of V6 and Gen6 failures.

In the case of some older Ody's, coolers made no difference in many cases.

What I do know as fact, is that Honda's ATF Z1 isnt good for more than 15k in any tranny, be it i4 or V6 regardless of year. Blackstone Labs has confirmed this via my own paid for tests.

Do a refresh of 3qts every year and you'll be fine.
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post #14 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 04:35 PM
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What I do know as fact, is that Honda's ATF Z1 isnt good for more than 15k in any tranny, be it i4 or V6 regardless of year. Blackstone Labs has confirmed this via my own paid for tests.
Don't know about that, I know one colleague who has just over 200K km on his 2002 V6 Accord, changed the ATF twice only and he's not one to go easy on his car either.

Another coworker changed the ATF in her 2001 Civic at 100K km, and changed ATF again at 140K km, the AT started to slip at 170K km.

Quote:
Do a refresh of 3qts every year and you'll be fine.
Hopefully that is the case, I talked my sister into a 2007 Civic due to the genearl reliability, already had her change the ATF and ATF filter at 40K km, we'll see how long this AT lasts.

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post #15 of 24 Old 05-24-2011, 05:19 PM
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Don't know about that, I know one colleague who has just over 200K km on his 2002 V6 Accord, changed the ATF twice only and he's not one to go easy on his car either.
Yup. Neighbour has 400,000 km on his car, renews with Z-1 every 100,000 km. Car runs and shifts like a champ.


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